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  #1 (permalink)   IP: 151.213.147.252
Old 2008-10-04
steagall1000 steagall1000 is offline
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Question Topic: Rear Protection

TSi+WRX,

Hey I saw over at RD.net you posted this below, about you felt the Diode based jammers were in your opinion better for rear protection. You did mention a 4 head Blinder but lets see through testing with a ultralyte against a 2 head blinder, if your opinion is questionable?? I would like to challenge you on this. Here was your posting below:


You Quoted: Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Cleveland/Shaker Heights, Ohio, USA
Posts: 5,850
Re: Single-head LI on my rental. Hmmmm...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For rear protection, I am very, very pessimistic.

I currently think that only a dual-head, laser-diode based setup, such as a dual LI (which also has the specific advantage of having dedicated "rear" units, the Slim heads, configured for rear-on threats' characteristics) or dual LPP, is a viable defense.

Either that, or devote a M45, a four-head Blinder, setup, *JUST* for the rear.

To me, due to the fact that the rear of the vehicle is so hard to protect, it's either go all out, balls-out, or go home.

In having "some" protection in the back, although one can argue that it's much better than having none at all, my worry is that it will lead you into complacency, and in being less cautious about things such as blind on-ramps, bridge-berms, etc., cause you to receive a citation where, normally, with your heightened awareness of such potential threats, that you would not have.

The lack of consistent, reliable, rear defense, in a TRUE JFG manner, is something that I am most pessimistic about.
__________________
- Allen / Usual Suspect "DumboRAT" / One of the Three Stooges

Me: '05 Subaru Legacy 2.5GT Limited sedan, 5MT, Atlantic Blue Pearl ("periwinkle") - name: "Winky"
- countermeasures: 9500i (4307, Red; Rev5 x50, Blue - backup)/ZR3; LPP v8.3h/v10.1s-CAN/AU (2x front, 1x rear), LI Rev.2.8, Ver.7.03 (quad: w/Slim Rear); VEIL G4; CR8APL8s (w/LaserShield, front); Cheetah GPS-Mirror

Wifey: '05 Subaru WRX sedan, 4EAT, Crystal Grey Metallic
- countermeasures: she's a blonde who drives slow

Baby-Anna: too short to reach any pedals!




TSi+WRX,

I have tested a LI 2 head rear on "rsatman" mercedes at the athens test we did. Its numbers were similar to the video I did below on the Blinder M25 J15 rev on my honda. My heads are very close together, where rsatmans were not. I got punch-throughs at 111 feet and 174 on the LI. This was using my gun. rsatman wanted to see how well it would do with his heads level from the rear. Also note his mercedes is dark candy apple red and has less back surface than my accord. We never did get to film that test because we were all ran off by a cop that day. But the blinder I have on my car had identical numbers. You really only need 2 heads for a small to midsize sedan. See my vid below:

YouTube - Rear Shots Part 2


I believe with veil applied on my tail lights, that there would be most likely JFG from start to finish. So in my testing conclusion the LED Blinder heads were more than enough protection against a rear threat. Also with the Veil G4 applied the results would be better. Thats my .02 cents on that. What yours TSi+WRX????
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  #2 (permalink)   IP: 129.22.226.41
Old 2008-10-06
TSi+WRX TSi+WRX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steagall1000 View Post
Hey I saw over at RD.net you posted this below, about you felt the Diode based jammers were in your opinion better for rear protection. You did mention a 4 head Blinder but lets see through testing with a ultralyte against a 2 head blinder, if your opinion is questionable?? I would like to challenge you on this. Here was your posting below:...
Correct, I believe that, currently, a laser-diode (CLED) based jammer is necessary for full-rear protection, based not on receptive capability (look at the LED-based ZR3/4, whose receptive capabilities go far above that of even the LPP/ALG8/PASS), but output as well.

I believe that with enough heads devoted to the rear, however - such as with a 4-head Blinder - this deficit of the LED-based jammers can be overcome, as more coverage could be specifically given to each hardpoint.

Quote:
I have tested a LI 2 head rear on "rsatman" mercedes at the athens test we did. Its numbers were similar to the video I did below on the Blinder M25 J15 rev on my honda. My heads are very close together, where rsatmans were not.
I thought that rsatman's setup placed his rear LI heads even closer together?

Custom Rear LI Install (Added Installed pics on car) - Radar Detector Jammer Forum

Cross-confirmed by:

http://mem-tek.com/radar/Atlanta_jam...I_1000x740.jpg

That's the width of his rear plate - no matter which way it's cut, this comparison should give your Blinder setup an advantage, in terms of reception. Although barely centimeters apart in difference, I think it is important to remember that it has been shown, through experience with a variety of jammers, that even just such a little difference can make a not un-noticeable impact on performance.

Quote:
I got punch-throughs at 111 feet and 174 on the LI. This was using my gun. rsatman wanted to see how well it would do with his heads level from the rear.


OK, I'm confused.....I thought that these were the results:

Atlanta Jammerfest 2008

Taken from the above:
Quote:
Testing: Straight-On Rear Shots

We began to test the rear with rsatmans LI going out first and Wsteagall shooting at the rear. We got 3 runs of JFG. However, during the middle of the testing we had a LEO break up our testing and force us to leave. Hence, no data being included for this rear testing. One of the participants reports getting punchthroughs on the rear of zr4’s but none on the rear LI but again were informal and unofficial.

Rsatmans' Setup Perspective

I was impressed with my setup I felt that the punchthoughs on the overpass were due to me failing to clean my heads in over 2 weeks and alignment issues which both were corrected after the overpass testing occurred setting me up for jtg on the frontal straight testing. However, due to time constraints no more runs were made. I also felt that my rear testing was very intriguing with JFG on all 3 guns. However, I wish we could have had completed the tests and shot at the ZR4s. Conclusion I feel that my setup will protect me in all situations since my realignment and if I keep my heads clean.
Or was this a different test?

Quote:
Also note his mercedes is dark candy apple red and has less back surface than my accord. We never did get to film that test because we were all ran off by a cop that day.
Well, it does seem to be the same test, as those particular observations are definitely cross-confirmed via the fact that no official results were recorded, due to the police interruption.

Quote:
But the blinder I have on my car had identical numbers. You really only need 2 heads for a small to midsize sedan. See my vid below:

YouTube - Rear Shots Part 2
Placement - or the ability to do so, based on one's aesthetic/vehicle concerns - I think is key in this comparison.

Had rsatman been able to space his heads further apart - or, alternatively, if your heads were closer in - that might be another story altogether.

The problem of rear coverage is two-fold - not only must the jammer be "powerful" enough, it also needs to see the incoming threat. And both of these concerns also tie-in to the specific car/setup as well.

However, until the data debated above can be cross-confirmed, I'm unwilling to say that my current line-of-thought is incorrect or needs further amendment, but whether you'd like to pursue verification of said data, that, I'll leave up to you - for although you're banned from RD.net, I can certainly post there, and ask those questions.

Quote:
I believe with veil applied on my tail lights, that there would be most likely JFG from start to finish. So in my testing conclusion the LED Blinder heads were more than enough protection against a rear threat. Also with the Veil G4 applied the results would be better. Thats my .02 cents on that. What yours TSi+WRX????
I agree - if you VEIL'ed your tail-lights, I'd also be willing to bet that your current rear Blinder setup would be more than sufficient to result with "true-JFG" ("effective-JFG," IMveryHO, has already been accomplished - even your higher-speed runs on the other videos proved this to be a fact).

I'd even think that if you simply addressed the outermost areas of your rear tail-light assembly (i.e. the ones that trail from each fender), and left the trunk section alone, that you'd see the same good results.


TSi+WRX's Sig:- Allen/Usual Suspect "DumboRAT"/One of the Three Stooges

LI Rev.2.8, Ver.7.03 - quad 8.0A-f w/ 8.5 Slim-r
LPP v8.3h(CAN/AU)/10.1s, 2xF/1xR
9500i, Red (4307) w/ZR3
VEIL G4
CR8APL8s, w/LaserShield(F)
Cheetah GPS-Mirror

[ Wifey's FXT -> Bue 8500x50 (Rev.5); LI Rev.2.9, Ver.7.08 - dual 8.5 ]

Me: '05 Legacy 2.5GT Ltd., mildly modified
Wifey: '09 Forester XT, barely modded
Baby-Anna: too short to reach any pedals!
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  #3 (permalink)   IP: 151.213.147.252
Old 2008-10-06
steagall1000 steagall1000 is offline
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TSi+WRX,

The reason I asked you the above challenging question is because I have a lot of respect for what you bring to the table. You seem to have a lot of knowledge and good feed back on things. So don't take anything wrong that I ask you. Just friendly coversation.



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Old 2008-10-06
TSi+WRX TSi+WRX is offline
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^ No, no, please don't understand , I did not take that "challenge" in the wrong way - I was not offended at all, and I, too, want to see what a good two-head LED-based system can do, too.

In all honesty, I think that the performance that your J15 M25 setup provides your vehicle, in terms of rear-on, is very commendable, and goes to show well what a good LED-based jammer, plus good setup, can do, particularly in real-world scenarios where the vehicle will be "tagged" in an "at-speed" format, with drastically increasing distances.

Sure, that's not the same as a rigorous "test" situation, as many of us mentioned on RD.net, but in terms of your real-world effectiveness, it's going to cover all but those "once in a blue moon" happenings (which is what I, being the pessimist that I am, fears).



If I came off as being offensive, I didn't mean to, either!


TSi+WRX's Sig:- Allen/Usual Suspect "DumboRAT"/One of the Three Stooges

LI Rev.2.8, Ver.7.03 - quad 8.0A-f w/ 8.5 Slim-r
LPP v8.3h(CAN/AU)/10.1s, 2xF/1xR
9500i, Red (4307) w/ZR3
VEIL G4
CR8APL8s, w/LaserShield(F)
Cheetah GPS-Mirror

[ Wifey's FXT -> Bue 8500x50 (Rev.5); LI Rev.2.9, Ver.7.08 - dual 8.5 ]

Me: '05 Legacy 2.5GT Ltd., mildly modified
Wifey: '09 Forester XT, barely modded
Baby-Anna: too short to reach any pedals!
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  #5 (permalink)   IP: 192.251.125.85
Old 2008-10-06
steagall1000 steagall1000 is offline
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TSI+WRX,

That test with the LI was in commerce on a rental car he had. Dodge avenger actually. My bad, I should have cleared that up. I did get one punch-through on his LI with the stalker LZ at the athens test he will confirm that, I'm not exactly sure what the distance was but it was never really recorded. Thank you for your feed back and no you were not offensive. Your just stating the facts and your opinion. I respect that. Its good to know that we can talk with each other without fighting.
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