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Red Light Cameras - Photo Enforcement Discussion of red light cameras/speed-on-green cameras photo enforcement and related technology.

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  #1 (permalink)   IP: 64.12.117.10
Old 2008-09-10
Elitecasting Elitecasting is offline
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Default Where does a car stop at a red light?

As is the case in many red light tickets, some cars are in the intersection as a light turns red. Most red lights have a White stripe painted on the road to tell a car where to stop on a red light. If you are past that line on the road (painted line in question is 10-12 feet from intersection) and that is where you are to stop at a red light, how can a ticket be issued if your past it on a yellow light and it turns red in the intersection.
I read that there was a court case that went pretty high in the judicial system that was upheld by the courts that it is impossible to stop at the point indicated on the road if the car is past that point and the light has not turned red.
Any help on statute.
Thanks again for the insight.

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  #2 (permalink)   IP: 66.212.2.6
Old 2008-09-10
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Veil Guy Veil Guy is offline
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Default

I'll give it your question a try...but Craig is pretty knowledgeable of such things.

I believe today's red light camera systems a bit more sophisticated (in light of previous court challenges, I suspect) and I believe they provide still and or video documentation subsequent to (and preceding) the alleged violation.

With speed-on-green technology (which is already built-in to these systems but may not be turned-on) induction strips and/or infrared laser (lidar) can be used to detect a (rapidly) approaching vehicle and their algos can "predict" a likely violation based on time metrics and distance/speed approaches.

When Roy and I were involved in the intense FireBall Run, last year, I actually made an aggressive approach to an intersection followed by very hard braking which resulted in a false-trigger of a red light camera monitored intersection in Houston.

As it turned out, we didn't actually "run the red light," but I was fully prepared to fight a ticket, if it has appeared in my mailbox.

Fortunately, it did not.

I believe that's what the pre- and post- analysis is used for--to add a more accurate context for the photographed event.

I hope this helps you, but Craig may be better suited to give you a more thorough answer than I.

With respect to the banner, thanks, I believe we have something that I can make available for you...thanks for thinking of us.

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  #3 (permalink)   IP: 64.12.117.144
Old 2008-09-10
Elitecasting Elitecasting is offline
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Hey Veil thanks for your response, but I think you may have misread my post. All roads that have a red light have "painted white lines that at the intersection. These are just regular painted stripes about a foot wide. this is where you stop at a light.

A court case I heard about was argued (successfully) that if a car is past that line it physically is impossible for that car to stop at a point that it has already passed. Pa DMV says that a car must stop at the white line at a red light. If you are driving and the light is yellow and you go fully past the line and the light turns red in the intersection. You are already past the point the guide says you are to stop. maybe by 1-2 car lengths.

The post was not about trigger strips on the road. I apoogize if my wording led you astray on that.
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  #4 (permalink)   IP: 98.165.150.26
Old 2008-09-11
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Default Curb line

State laws are generally in accord that a vehicle is considered to be in the intersection once its front wheels have passed the curb line. The curb line is a theoretical line that connects the four closest corners of a four-way intersection. It’s always farther into the intersection than the stop line, usually by 4-6 feet or more.

Most RLCs have two parallel piezo strips (induction loops), one just past the stop line, the other at about the curb line. Crossing the first strip starts a timer, adjustable from zero to as much as one second, which is the leeway given drivers before the first camera is triggered. Most RLC contractors, with the city's hearty approval, set the tolerance to as little as 0.1 second, not wishing to miss any revenue.

If you look at the data box at the upper corner of the violation photo, it'll have a value for the duration of the red light before the camera was triggered. On Gatso systems it's a yellow "R" with a X.X (seconds/tenths) after it. Competing systems are similar.

Hope this helps.

Craig


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  #5 (permalink)   IP: 205.188.117.144
Old 2008-09-11
Elitecasting Elitecasting is offline
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Default Thanks Craig

I appreciate the time you took to answer. But we have NO photo in this case. And NO electronic trigger points. It is all visual with a police officer sitting in a car.

The case is as follows:
you are at least 1 full length past the white stopping line and in the intersection and the light turns red.
Is the arguement that your vehicle is past the point of stopping(white line) by a car length with a yellow light turning red that you can't possibly and (physically) be able to go backwards.

PA-DMV states that if you can't stop at the stopping point for a red light(white line )you may proceed thru the intersection. This is totally visual and the policeman has already said in court that the light turned red while I was in the intersection.

thanks again
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