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Radar Roy Radar Roy is recognized as one the leading authorities in the radar detector industry. A former police officer, himself, Roy recently sold his company (RadarBusters) to a large catalog company (NetShops) but even in retirement, Roy continues to be a recognized force in this industry.

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  #21 (permalink)   IP: 151.213.147.252
Old 2008-10-03
steagall1000 steagall1000 is offline
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Question Your right

Tsi+WRX,

You Quoted:I honestly don't think that this is a fault of the jammer - inherent - per-se.

Rather, I think that it is more a fault of setup.

Certainly, it can be said that a jammer that doesn't have sufficient capability to fully "cover" the front of X or Y vehicle - when compared to another that can - carries with it an inherent fault, but in all honesty, I simply think that this is more along the lines of the concern being a "technical limitation."

You cite, steagall, that your setup is incapable of protection the lower corners of your front bumper. Is this with the M25 two-head setup, M35 three-head, or M45 four-head?

I'd be willing to bet that this is either a limitation of the two head setup (more likely) or the three-head (less likely) - and that if you were to bump up to the four-head setup, you'd virtually fully eliminate this concern (at least versus *most* LIDAR devices).

And although I doubt that the following is your case, it has been demonstrated - with not only the Blinder, but also the ZR3/4, the LPP, and even the LI - that failure of proper head placement, as well as maintenance of leveling/aim/cleaning can also cause such concerns. In such a scenario, I believe that the fault is with the end-user, not of the device itself.


Quote:
I guess the real answer to this is are laser jammers effective in giving you enough time to slow down?? Yes but it depends on different factors and senarios. Can you still get a speeding ticket with a laser jammer?? Absolutely, depending on your setup and if the unit is not installed properly, or it doesn't perform well. So in my opinion jammers are only 70-90% effective. There is no 100% protection from laser. Atleast not yet!

The factors and scenarios, in my opinion, does not only cover "our" end of the equation:

- the car's finish, size, profile, and specific hardpoint configuration
- the utilization of proper/sufficient active and/or passive countermeasures
- the proper placement/setup and maintenance of such countermeasures
- failure to engage/activate the device
- proper function of the jammer (i.e. malfunction)

and the other side:

- the enforcement hardware
- the enforcement setup
- the enforcer's skill

but also terrain/secondary variables:

- over the hill/crest with a setup that's not suited for such
- from-overpass with a setup that's not suited to such
- rear-on from-elevation

- vehicle traversing roadway irregularity, with already compromised aim/leveling/setup

[ Note: of these "terrain" variables, there have been video demonstrations from various groups' testing, as well as first-hand tales, logged for reference on various hobbyist Forums, from various jammer users who've received tickets from unexpected/early PT/burnthrough from such issues. ]

and also, there's the intangible:

- aka: just blind bad luck for us, and good luck for the enforcer, for WHATEVER reason.



To me, it's much more than just the jammer being effective, on a technical level.

There's many layers to the equation, and failure of ANY of these will readily shift the balance of favor to the other side.

This is why I always say that the odds are not with us. The odds always favor "The House."





TSi+WRX,

I agree with you on your answer to this problem. Whether its a 4 head blinder or two head it doesn't matter. The officer can still get punch-through on my lower bumper. I know this because I got a speeding ticket over 5 months ago when a officer shot at me from a angle shot at 400 feet. My blinder M35 didn't even go off. Here is a pic of my car. look directly under my head lights and where the bumper curves, is where he got me. I know this because I went back to the site where the officer sat and had my friend drive my car towards me. I tried different shots at the front and head lights and the ultralyte set the blinder off and jammed. But the minute I targeted just under the head light where the bumper starts to curve, the blinder never alerted and I got instant punch-through. "I also agree with your many layers to the equation scenarios." I believe you and I are on the same page TSi+WRX, we may have our disagreements, but in the end we still come together as enthusiest.

http://mem-tek.com/radar/Atlanta_jam...5_1000x740.jpg

Maybe you can give me some idea's. I was thinking maybe a black bra on the front. What do you think TSi+WRX?

Sincerly,

Scott

Last edited by steagall1000; 2008-10-03 at 19:38.
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  #22 (permalink)   IP: 76.190.193.28
Old 2008-10-03
TSi+WRX TSi+WRX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steagall1000 View Post
I agree with you on your answer to this problem. Whether its a 4 head blinder or two head it doesn't matter. The officer can still get punch-through on my lower bumper. I know this because I got a speeding ticket over 5 months ago when a officer shot at me from a angle shot at 400 feet. My blinder M35 didn't even go off. Here is a pic of my car. look directly under my head lights and where the bumper curves, is where he got me. I know this because I went back to the site where the officer sat and had my friend drive my car towards me. I tried different shots at the front and head lights and the ultralyte set the blinder off and jammed. But the minute I targeted just under the head light where the bumper starts to curve, the blinder never alerted and I got instant punch-through.
I'm very glad that you replied, steagall - indeed, I do now agree with your assessment....that there's a bigger problem, and that it's not due to your placement, that it is, indeed, jammer-inherent.

Before I checked back on this thread, I went back to one of your/your friend's videos, which I first saw on RD.net:

YouTube - Blinder J15 Front and Rear Shots

Between time 1:42 to 1:47, you clearly cited that the setup was a J15, M75, with 5 (five) heads up front.

This is backed-up by your supplied photo:

Quote:

And with that confirmation, we now go back to the video.....

Throughout the 2:23 to 2:35 time-stamped runs, it was JTG. I honestly expected the rest of your front-shots to play out this way, given that it is a M55 setup, on just the front of the vehicle.

Yet, in the 2:40 to 2:55 run, at time-point appx. 2:45 to 2:46 (if you're able to freeze it at precisely that time-point, I see exactly what you see, the targeting reticle is directly at that area, but to extrapolate back to time point 2:44:50 or 2:45, I would imagine that the reticle would be even further out, towards the fender, yet still at your cited weakpoint), indeed, your cited point-vulnerability was noted (PT/burnthrough of 46 MPH) - at the passgenger's side lower front bumper corner.

And later, on your first "rear" run, at time point 3:25-3:26, we hear a lock-tone from the Ultralyte, and in the next half second (followed to time point 3:28), we see the locked speed reading of 43 MPH. While the locked reading appears when the aiming reticle is on a more upper portion of your bumper (and even hood) than our current point-of-interest, in viewing the video over and over, I can't help but think that we actually heard "lock," at time point 3:25, when the point-of-aim was, again, in your cited weakpoint, low on the front bumper, off in the corner.....



Like I said at the beginning of this post, FWIW, I think you're right, steagall - this does look like a case where the limits of the jammer has been reached

From what I can see, you've positioned your heads ideally.

The two in the upper/main grill ideally protect your headlights, and the one where the front plate would be ideally reinforces center-mass.

Each of the two in your below-bumper radiator opening are displaced as far outboard as possible, and I'd wager that, by the looks of the driver's side unit in the picture you've provided, that you've got them oriented so that the receivers are as far outboard as possible, too.

You've done all you can, in my very humble opinion.

This is not a setup fault - it does look like the technical limits of the device has been reached.

Question: Out of curiosity, what's the linear measurement to the outer flanks, both at the headlights (as measured from both the upper set of jammers, to the outer corners of the headlamps, as well as from the lower set to the same triangulated point - and also again from each jammer head to the lower bumper area, where you're having trouble)?

I'm betting it's either exceeding the "18-inch rule," or is very close to such, and that's why you're seeing problems.

Quote:
Maybe you can give me some idea's. I was thinking maybe a black bra on the front. What do you think TSi+WRX?
What I can't really understand is why you're not also having problems at the upper corners of and also outer edges of your headlights.

By looking at the picture you've provided, it would seem to reason, to me, that those areas would be equally problematic, given the concern you're seeing at the lower bumper skin area. I can't quite figure that one out....

But if I'm pressed to say something, I'll go with this:

The reasoning that I'd like to propose, as an answer, would be whether or not it's because of the effects we're seeing in VEIL Guy's IR-videos - specifically, this one:

YouTube - Night Operation: IR Reflectivity Challenge on Large Vehicle

Note the same area on his BMW's lower air-dam, to the left and right of the main lower radiator opening right below his fog/driving/cornering lights. There's an extra aero "lip" protrusion, which, with its curvatures, you'll note is literally "flaring" under IR.

[ If you can't understand where I'm talking about - I do apologize - have a look at time-point 7:25 in that video, VEIL Guy literally has his hand right on that spot. After seeing what I'm talking about, there, you should then be able to pick up that "flaring" throughout the rest of the video. ]

In returning to the point, I'm trying to make, you'll note that your lower bumper is configured rather interestingly, at that area.

There's that little aero-minded protrusion on your bumper, too, but also, interestingly enough, you've got a flat surface, right below where your actual bumper-beam resides behind the bumper skin.

I wonder what's doing you more harm.

That curved aero enhancement, which, as we see in VEIL Guy's video, is a huge point-flare of light reflection - or, alternatively, if that FLAT spot between your bumper beam's "cap" and the lower aero flare is causing the actual PT/burnthrough.

The way I see it, here's your options:

(1) The bra. This might be really effective, particularly if you can get a matte/rough surfaced one, but at the same time, I'd hate to see something like that ruin the aesthetics of your EX. Despite the really handsome, next-generation looks of the current Accord sedans and coupes, I still really like the aesthetics of the previous-generation Accord, particularly of its most distinctive front-end. And that bra's gonna be rather ugly. But if you used it exclusively for longer trips, with higher risk, the trade-off, at least temporary, might just be worth it.

(2) Mount a ste of heads UNDER the bumper skin, at that area. I know GA roads are smooooooooth. I grew up there, during my high-school years, when I drove, for pleasure (and stupidity!) a lot. Let's just say that when I went back to Baltimore for my undergrad studies (having left that city, for Atlanta, during my middle-school years), I was surprised at how bad the roads were....and that when I then came to Cleveland, I was doubly shocked. Still, regardless of how smooth the roads (and regardless of the fact that you're stil at stock suspension height and travel), I'd be rather leery of putting heads THAT low, for road-debris/parking damage (not only curbs, which would include U-turns on public roadways, but also more aggressive parking stops) reasons. I'd imagine that this would *definitely* solve the issue, but it may not be the best way to go.

(3) Drastic surgery. Either cut the bumper skin and embed a head there, or, alternatively, source aftermarket (or even OEM take-off; no matter what, these should be aplenty, if not necessarily inexpensive, given the favor that Import-Sport-Compact tuners grace the Honda name with, and also with the simple number of such vehicles on-road) headlamp units, and modify their structure to "embed" a jammer head within. The problem I see of the headlamp modification is that it's really going to be VERY, very drastic, as you will need to literally take out a piece of the headlamp's outer lens, place the Blinder head within the cutout (since you can't just place the heads "behind' the outer headlamp lens, as that would be equivalent to putting the heads behind, say, vehicle greenhouse glass - and you know well from your own testing how ineffective that can be), and then seal around the cut area - this will be both technically as well as aesthetically EXTREMELY challenging. I'd honestly rather just go with cutting the bumper skin, which a competent body shop should be able to easily effect, with excellent cosmetic results. I'd, at the same time, "embed" a set of aftermarket LED "marker" lights, or even standard fog/driving lamps, both oval/rectangular in shape, in that area, to effect some cosmetic camouflage of the Blinder heads.

(4) Troubleshoot the system.

4(a) Be sure that those heads actually are working, and also, that you're sourcing power independently for EACH distinct/separate "system" you're using. If you're pulling power from a common tap, that might, in and of itself, be the cause of your problem.

4 (b) Eliminate potential crosstalk. Since you're using what I can imagine would be at least two separate Blinder systems up front, my concern here would be whether if the heads firing from the separate systems are firing in-sync? or if they're producing consistently inconsistent negative crosstalk. In this respect, I'd like to see what your setup's performance would be, with those specific weakness areas, if you ran a setup that:

- utilized only the upper two heads, and the central lower, on one c-box
- utilized only the upper two heads, and two outer lower, on one c-box
- utilized only the three lower heads, on one c-box

Quote:
I believe you and I are on the same page TSi+WRX, we may have our disagreements, but in the end we still come together as enthusiest.
+1.


TSi+WRX's Sig:- Allen/Usual Suspect "DumboRAT"/One of the Three Stooges

LI Rev.2.8, Ver.7.03 - quad 8.0A-f w/ 8.5 Slim-r
LPP v8.3h(CAN/AU)/10.1s, 2xF/1xR
9500i, Red (4307) w/ZR3
VEIL G4
CR8APL8s, w/LaserShield(F)
Cheetah GPS-Mirror

[ Wifey's FXT -> Bue 8500x50 (Rev.5); LI Rev.2.9, Ver.7.08 - dual 8.5 ]

Me: '05 Legacy 2.5GT Ltd., mildly modified
Wifey: '09 Forester XT, barely modded
Baby-Anna: too short to reach any pedals!
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  #23 (permalink)   IP: 192.168.1.1
Old 2008-10-03
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Veil Guy Veil Guy is offline
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Default Improving Active Laser Jammers with Veil G4

What a pleasure it is to read this thread. Wow, really good stuff all around.

---

I wonder if Scott's problem isn't routed in his side view mirrors (among other things).

Years ago when I attended the first and second ever GoL event, you'll notice that my targeting punch-throughs dropped significantly when I placed a black shirt covering my side view mirror.

Could Scott be experiencing the same phenomenon?

To wit:

Guys of LIDAR - Radar Detector and Laser Jammer Performance Testing

Notice the last targeting chart of my silver vehicle...

I wonder Scott if you could fold your side views and make some additional runs to see if you've got significant reflectivity from those sources.

Wait a minute...

Are those headlights Veiled?

If they're not, what are you waiting for dude? Is Leon suggesting that his Blinder's performance couldn't be improved?

Looking at your configuration, your vehicle appears very tough on any laser jammer configuration. The reason, I suspect, is due to the mounting limitation of your jammer heads in your front fascia. Both of your headlights extend well beyond your jammer heads on either side (and the "reach" of each head may be limited and adding more heads inside probably won't help you either).

Scott, I'd be willing to bet ya a Jack Daniels that if you simply Veiled your headlights you'd likely get better laser jammer performance with two heads (or perhaps three at the most) than with going with five without Veil. Your situation may actually be a proof for why simply adding more output power in and of itself may not be the issue, particularly if they are not entirely in-phase with each other (are you actively running more than one control module at the same time? If so, you may be destructively interfering with your own destructive interference!)

I haven't seen a laser jammer yet that hasn't benefited from combining their function with Veil's.

Veil Guy


Veil Guy's Sig:

Protect yourself from speeding tickets[/b] with the VEIL stealth coating.

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  #24 (permalink)   IP: 151.213.147.252
Old 2008-10-04
steagall1000 steagall1000 is offline
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Thumbs up Thats it :)

TSi+WRX,

You Quoted: Yet, in the 2:40 to 2:55 run, at time-point appx. 2:45 to 2:46 (if you're able to freeze it at precisely that time-point, I see exactly what you see, the targeting reticle is directly at that area, but to extrapolate back to time point 2:44:50 or 2:45, I would imagine that the reticle would be even further out, towards the fender, yet still at your cited weakpoint), indeed, your cited point-vulnerability was noted (PT/burnthrough of 46 MPH) - at the passgenger's side lower front bumper corner.

And later, on your first "rear" run, at time point 3:25-3:26, we hear a lock-tone from the Ultralyte, and in the next half second (followed to time point 3:28), we see the locked speed reading of 43 MPH. While the locked reading appears when the aiming reticle is on a more upper portion of your bumper (and even hood) than our current point-of-interest, in viewing the video over and over, I can't help but think that we actually heard "lock," at time point 3:25, when the point-of-aim was, again, in your cited weakpoint, low on the front bumper, off in the corner.....



Like I said at the beginning of this post, FWIW, I think you're right, steagall - this does look like a case where the limits of the jammer has been reached

From what I can see, you've positioned your heads ideally.

The two in the upper/main grill ideally protect your headlights, and the one where the front plate would be ideally reinforces center-mass.

Each of the two in your below-bumper radiator opening are displaced as far outboard as possible, and I'd wager that, by the looks of the driver's side unit in the picture you've provided, that you've got them oriented so that the receivers are as far outboard as possible, too.

You've done all you can, in my very humble opinion.

This is not a setup fault - it does look like the technical limits of the device has been reached.

Question: Out of curiosity, what's the linear measurement to the outer flanks, both at the headlights (as measured from both the upper set of jammers, to the outer corners of the headlamps, as well as from the lower set to the same triangulated point - and also again from each jammer head to the lower bumper area, where you're having trouble)?

I'm betting it's either exceeding the "18-inch rule," or is very close to such, and that's why you're seeing problems.



TSi+WRX,

Yes you are correct the 46 mph punch-through was in my weak spot. Also note that the 3 heads on the bottom bumper are J11's which are much weaker than my 2 head J15's. I have tested the J15's on and cut of my J11's. Are you ready for this, with the ultralyte I get punch-throughs at 167 feet and 94 feet shooting at the headlights. Now with the 3 head J11's on I get 400 foot punch-throughs with the headlight shots. With both systems running I get JTG everytime except when aiming at my weak spot. I think part of my problem could be the weaker heads on the bottom bumper. The J11's are a real disappointment to me. If I had 5 Blinder J15 heads in the same setup I have now, might be the difference in performance. I agree with you TSi+WRX, there's not much I can do and yes I like the older accords better in the front. My measurements from the two J15 heads to my weak spot is 22 inches from the curve of the bumper. Now the heads on the bottom bumper closest to the weak spot are 12 inches. The problem is the Lower powered J11's have problems detecting a laser shot taken at a angle right where the bumper is curved. But your right I have exceeded the technical limits of my system. I will add Veil to the head lights and be good to go. As for the lower bumper No jammer will save me. Its just the way the car is designed, and sometimes we are limited as installers by this problem

Thank you TSi+WRX for your very detailed report of my videos. This is something I think everyone should know when doing a install for a blinder, LI, LPP or escort system on a 2003-2006 honda accords.


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  #25 (permalink)   IP: 151.213.147.252
Old 2008-10-04
steagall1000 steagall1000 is offline
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Default LoL!!!:)

Veil Guy,

You make a great point about the mirrors. Yes those head lights will be veiled here very, very, soon. LoL! I have clipped my mirrors before at 600 feet with all heads running. Once you aim high to the far outside of my car, yes you can get lucky. Maybe I should put Binder heads in the mirrors. Its good to get feed back from you and TSi+WRX. I will give credit where credit is due. TSi+WRX is the only person who welcomed me back on RD.net. I think he has exceptional knowledge of Laser jammers and the technical stuff behind them. We could have used him at SEMA last year at the Blinder stand! I thinks its good to challenge one another as well as learn from each other. Yes I will admit Bob I get alittle carried away and challenge people who challenge the Blinder products. In all fairness I think TSi+WRX has really been on my side in alot of things that I tried so hard to prove over at RD.net. I just never really gave him the chance to prove what he was trying to say. So that was my fault. Yes I have been told the Blinder sells itself. You guys must understand I'm a dealer/salesman. I have to put food on my table for my kids and family. So when I get challenged about Blinder I'm only stating what I know as a tester. Thats all and nothing more. I hope you guys understand where I'm coming from.

scott









Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil Guy View Post
What a pleasure it is to read this thread. Wow, really good stuff all around.

---

I wonder if Scott's problem isn't routed in his side view mirrors (among other things).

Years ago when I attended the first and second ever GoL event, you'll notice that my targeting punch-throughs dropped significantly when I placed a black shirt covering my side view mirror.

Could Scott be experiencing the same phenomenon?

To wit:

Guys of LIDAR - Radar Detector and Laser Jammer Performance Testing

Notice the last targeting chart of my silver vehicle...

I wonder Scott if you could fold your side views and make some additional runs to see if you've got significant reflectivity from those sources.

Wait a minute...

Are those headlights Veiled?

If they're not, what are you waiting for dude? Is Leon suggesting that his Blinder's performance couldn't be improved?

Looking at your configuration, your vehicle appears very tough on any laser jammer configuration. The reason, I suspect, is due to the mounting limitation of your jammer heads in your front fascia. Both of your headlights extend well beyond your jammer heads on either side (and the "reach" of each head may be limited and adding more heads inside probably won't help you either).

Scott, I'd be willing to bet ya a Jack Daniels that if you simply Veiled your headlights you'd likely get better laser jammer performance with two heads (or perhaps three at the most) than with going with five without Veil. Your situation may actually be a proof for why simply adding more output power in and of itself may not be the issue, particularly if they are not entirely in-phase with each other (are you actively running more than one control module at the same time? If so, you may be destructively interfering with your own destructive interference!)

I haven't seen a laser jammer yet that hasn't benefited from combining their function with Veil's.

Veil Guy

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