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  #11 (permalink)   IP: 72.218.1.245
Old 2008-11-09
SCGT SCGT is offline
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Tell me about which is better (pros and cons) w/ Jammers w/ LED's vs Diode emitters.




Results to this point:

Bel STI Remote, Blinder (not sure which), Veil (if useful on tint)
.
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  #12 (permalink)   IP: 76.190.193.28
Old 2008-11-09
TSi+WRX TSi+WRX is offline
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^ GT500 ! Yummy!

I'm a car-guy's car-guy - I love 'em all.

Even of the genres which I don't "like," I can still give the guy (or gal) in the other lane a thumbs-up, for as a true car-nut, someone who mixes blood with gasoline and loves grease under the nails, I can appreciate the money, hard work, sweat, and countless hours that went-in to the other ride, no matter what it is, as long as it's done right.

For as much of a devoted Import Sport-Compact guy as I am, my almost 3-year old daughter delights in classic Detroit Musclecars (and apparently, I only recently learned, not modern Muscle, as she didn't particularly like the new Challenger) and Harleys. Go figure.

LegacyGT.com is devoted to the Subaru Legacy - mainly the BL/BP, the '05+ platforms.

Decently quick for a family sedan, particularly if one's willing to dump about 2-grand or so on aftermarket upgrades (which boosts us to power-to-weight and straight-line performance levels slightly above that of the Subaru Impreza WRX-STi).... pretty rip-roaringly funny when about 5 to 7 grand is devoted to powertrain, and then another 2 or so to the parts that handle the twisties.

My Legacy, as it stands now, isn't something that I'd call fast - or even quick - but it's definitely fun for a family sedan.

---

In terms of LED versus laser-diode (CLED, as fellow hobbyist MEM-TEK likes to call them), the latter is the newer trend, having arrived on-scene about a half-decade ago. In terms of "raw power," the laser-diodes just outright wins: at both extreme long range (>1500 ft.) as well as extreme short range (<300 ft.) - both of which are very rare for real-world encounters - laser-diode based jammers are virtually the only way to go, as at the extreme far range, LEDs don't provide enough power to cover for the entire vehicle's frontal profile, and at shorter ranges, the LIDAR literally "burns through" the LED's power output.

To an extent, this is why the use of passive protective measures is more necessary with LED-based jammers, than it is with laser-diode based jammers.

Nevertheless, the diode-based jammers do produce much more heat during their operation than their comparable LED-based units, and heat can and will severely degrade the effectiveness of the laser-diode based jammers - be it from a radiant ambient source (i.e. one LPP user mounted his rear jammer head, at first, in a rear "vent" area on his Lotus Elise, only to find out later that the head would get so overheated from the nearby muffler canister that it would cause the unit to literally throw up errors, after the first few minutes of operation) or by repeated triggering of its jamming output (currently speculated to be, in-part, what has been seen of the LPP's inconsistencies to the Laser Atlanta SpeedLaser III, as well as is perhaps the reason why Officer Fritter and hobbyist Stealth Stalker were each able to produce some rather shocking PTs on an LI equipped previous-generation Lexus LS sedan, even discounting the less-than-ideal mounting/setup of the jammer heads on that particular example).

And finally, LED based jammers seem to require more precision during mounting - proper leveling becomes even more critical for best-odds performance.

On the flip side, LED-based jammers have been around for longer....nearly twice as long as the laser-diode based jammers have been around. This does speak towards their durability and reliability, as there are plenty of the older units from both of the larger makes - Blinder and Escort - that are still very much in-use and operational, on-road.

However, while this fact is undeniable, it is also worth noting that what it suggests should not be extrapolated out-of-context. For example, neither the Escort ZR4 nor the Blinder 5-suffix (M25/35/45) units have been without the occasional early reports of failure - nor can it be said that either of these specific examples (i.e. currently on-market examples) have a longer track-record than even the relatively "young" Laser Interceptor.

( REF: Jammer advice - that page, as well as the following page, page 4, as you will see, contains my replies to steagall on the "age/durability" of these various units...feel free to cross-verify any and all that I've said via either the LI Forums, LPP Support Forums, RadarDetector.net Forums, or RadarReviews.net Forums, you'll find everything that I've said to be 100% true )

---

Per your question of VEIL, I will post to your other thread:

http://www.speedtraphunter.net/newre...ewreply&p=2235




TSi+WRX's Sig:- Allen/Usual Suspect "DumboRAT"/One of the Three Stooges

LI Rev.2.8, Ver.7.03 - quad 8.0A-f w/ 8.5 Slim-r
LPP v8.3h(CAN/AU)/10.1s, 2xF/1xR
9500i, Red (4307) w/ZR3
VEIL G4
CR8APL8s, w/LaserShield(F)
Cheetah GPS-Mirror

[ Wifey's FXT -> Bue 8500x50 (Rev.5); LI Rev.2.9, Ver.7.08 - dual 8.5 ]

Me: '05 Legacy 2.5GT Ltd., mildly modified
Wifey: '09 Forester XT, barely modded
Baby-Anna: too short to reach any pedals!
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  #13 (permalink)   IP: 192.251.125.85
Old 2008-11-09
steagall1000 steagall1000 is offline
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SCGT,

LED technology has been proven over the years to be more reliable than Diodes. LED stands for light emitting diode. The escort ZR4, Laser Mask and Blinder carry this technology. Diodes require more power to operate versus LED's and operate at hotter temperatures. The only Diode jammer that proved to be very reliable was the old Lidetek LE-10. Blinder has units that still jam todays laser guns that are over 9 years old. You will see on RD.net people talking about the Laser interceptor heads burning out or having constant problems with them. This brings me back to the point that no jammer is perfect, and every jammer has its problems. Over the last 6-8 years blinder has been proven in reliability and performance. My friend has a laser interceptor and has sent the unit into cliff more than once for issues. He now has a blinder and has had no problems with it at all. The escort is another jammer that is very reliable. So if your looking for reliability and good performance go with the Blinder. Both the escort and Blinder units will serve you well over the long haul. Also I mean't to mention that the blinder M25 and M45 has been tested at ranges over 2500 feet down to the actual laser gun and sucessfully JTG. We have test footage of shooting on a overpass at cars equipped with Blinder M25's jamming a Pro laser III and Stalker LZ from start to finish. This test was done in athens Ga. You will see it under atlanta testers on RD.net. Thats my .02 cents on jammer technology and performance.




Quote:
Originally Posted by SCGT View Post
Tell me about which is better (pros and cons) w/ Jammers w/ LED's vs Diode emitters.




Results to this point:

Bel STI Remote, Blinder (not sure which), Veil (if useful on tint)
.

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  #14 (permalink)   IP: 72.218.1.245
Old 2008-11-09
SCGT SCGT is offline
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Join Date: 2008 Nov
Posts: 12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSi+WRX View Post
^ GT500 ! Yummy!

I'm a car-guy's car-guy - I love 'em all.

Even of the genres which I don't "like," I can still give the guy (or gal) in the other lane a thumbs-up, for as a true car-nut, someone who mixes blood with gasoline and loves grease under the nails, I can appreciate the money, hard work, sweat, and countless hours that went-in to the other ride, no matter what it is, as long as it's done right.

For as much of a devoted Import Sport-Compact guy as I am, my almost 3-year old daughter delights in classic Detroit Musclecars (and apparently, I only recently learned, not modern Muscle, as she didn't particularly like the new Challenger) and Harleys. Go figure.

I had a Subaru Brat back in the day, does that count?

Imports cost too much to mod for what you get IMO. I also have a 2007 Mini Cooper S. Pretty quick and agile, but really expensive to mod for little result.

For my car $2500 got me a full suspension set up and a few engine mods to get me to 675 crank HP (that's 560 RWHP). And the car handles awesome when I take it to VIR in Danville Va. Need to take the Mini there now.


Thanks to both of you for the info, I'm sure I'll have more questions in a bit.



.
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  #15 (permalink)   IP: 76.190.193.28
Old 2008-11-10
TSi+WRX TSi+WRX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steagall1000 View Post
SCGT,

LED technology has been proven over the years to be more reliable than Diodes. LED stands for light emitting diode. The escort ZR4, Laser Mask and Blinder carry this technology. Diodes require more power to operate versus LED's and operate at hotter temperatures. The only Diode jammer that proved to be very reliable was the old Lidetek LE-10. Blinder has units that still jam todays laser guns that are over 9 years old. You will see on RD.net people talking about the Laser interceptor heads burning out or having constant problems with them. This brings me back to the point that no jammer is perfect, and every jammer has its problems. Over the last 6-8 years blinder has been proven in reliability and performance. My friend has a laser interceptor and has sent the unit into cliff more than once for issues. He now has a blinder and has had no problems with it at all. The escort is another jammer that is very reliable. So if your looking for reliability and good performance go with the Blinder. Both the escort and Blinder units will serve you well over the long haul. Thats my .02 cents on jammer technology.
Again, I strongly debate the validity of much of the argument above:

Jammer advice - page 3

Jammer advice -
page 4

I will quote what I have presented in that very thread, on those two very same pages, as counterpoint to steagall's specific assertions from above:

--

Quote:
Originally Posted by steagall1000 View Post
Blinder has units that still jam todays laser guns that are over 9 years old.
Yes, Blinder has had a most impressive 8-9 years run in this industry - one that, in my view, eclipses even that of Escort's, but at the same time, we cannot get carried away here, and superimpose PAST performance on CURRENT.

To wit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSi+WRX View Post
Nevertheless, while such extraordinarily positive data exists for the older Blinder products, claims against the new 5-suffix units (M45/35/25) are not unknown. I was, myself, rather shocked to hear of such issues, but as you can well see from RR.net (ref: Radar Detector Reviews & Radar Detectors Review Forum & Test - View Single Post - CONSUMER ALERT!! Laser Star officially sucks balls ), this is not something that can be ignored, again, particularly of such a "new" unit.

Currently - speaking solely of jammers that are bought NEW, retail - the LPP has been on-road the longest, and truly maintains the best durability/reliability record.

The new ZR4 trails both the 5-suffix (M45/35/25) Blinders (and to this, I should add, that there's even less known of the J16s, due to their even younger age and the fact that the critical jamming LEDs have been updated) as well as the Laser Interceptor by a wide margin, when it comes to their time-on-road and miles-on-road.

Yes, past history should be examined, when we're talking about durability and reliability, but a more accurate of the PRESENT circumstances should also be dissected, in-detail.
--

Quote:
Originally Posted by steagall1000 View Post
You will see on RD.net people talking about the Laser interceptor heads burning out or having constant problems with them.
Whoa there - first of all, didn't you say, elsewhere, that:

Quote:
Originally Posted by steagall1000 View Post
RD.net has really no creditability when it comes to these discussions on jammer reliability. Considering the fact that RD.net is all about the LI and LPP, which have shown horrible reliability over the years.
Exactly how does this favor your argument here, in this thread, at all?

Should we think that the positive claims on RD.net for the Blinder are to carry no credibility because, somehow, RD.net is completely biased towards the LI? [ Note that I disproved this assertion of yours, that RD.net is somehow "anti-Blinder," by my subsequent posts on page 4 of that thread - REF: Jammer advice , posts 16, 18, and 19. ]

And are you going to make up your mind about whether the RD.net Forums is something that you will continue to talk trash about, based on the ill-will and that you'd generated throughout that Forum and its members ( REF: Laser Jammer Test 2008: Guys of Lidar - and SCGT, I would highly recommend that you read through that ENTIRE thread, both my initial post there on page 2, as well as my follow-up on page 5, post number 21 ) or are you going to say that the past posts there actually do count for something, and that you're going to use them as evidence in your favor?

Would you please make up your mind - steagall as to either continue to degrade my fellow hobbyists on RD.net, or to, instead, take their words as valid?

Second, the LI heads did not "burn out."

Their problems had nothing to do with the diode's lifespan, which, to-date, we have NO community data as to how long that might be (and may I remind you that by citing the long-running Lidatek LE-10 as your example above, you've essentially proved your own counterpoint, as the LE-10, in being a "brute-force" jammer, also tremendously overdrove its emitter diode, to the point where the jammer was forced to shut-down after 8 to 10 seconds of jamming output; if a laser-diode jammer that is SO overpowered and abused can survive for so long, then wouldn't it stand to reason that the modern look-up-table, non-overdriven [both of these factors are evolutions, based on the desire to minimize jam-codes] diode-based jammers would last MUCH longer?).

The problems arose due to weathersealing issues, which was, in-turn, due to that specific production batch having, as their makers claimed, sub-optimal sealant as a result of plant/manufacture issues.

To the best of collective community knowledge, this incident was isolated to the first US and Taiwan bound batches, using the version 8.0 heads. It was estimated by both the LI mother team (read: Ivan) as well as Cliff that the number of affected units is around 70% of that production batch, and so far, via warranty claims posted to RD.net as well as the LI Forums, this would seem to be a valid estimate.

Since the warranty replacements were finalized this past summer, under Cliff's guidance, here, stateside, to the best of my knowledge, there have been very few further complaints. The only two I know of, to-date, were cases of one head and one control-box that malfunctioned immediately upon delivery, and were immediately warranty-claimed.

[ Aside - since the LPP was mentioned above, even though I cannot currently recommend the purchase of this product, based on their lack of response, so far, to the TruSpeed threat, I think that it is only fair that I re-state the fact that the LPP, in its current iteration, has, so far, the longest in-service history of any of the discussed SPECIFIC jammers - the ZR4, Blinder 5-suffix J16 revision, LI, LaserMask, etc.... ANYTHING! ]

Quote:
Originally Posted by steagall1000 View Post
My friend has a laser interceptor and has sent the unit into cliff more than once for issues.
OK, that's news to me - you've never mentioned this before, as far as I can recall.

If this is the case, then please share with us who this person is, and let's see if either he/she and/or Cliff can cross-verify such claims.

We've already seen that your recall of past events, particularly of the Laser Interceptor, is biased by your negative perception of this product ( REF: Topic: Rear Protection ) - let's make sure that this isn't such a case, too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by steagall1000 View Post
The escort is another jammer that is very reliable.
To which I replied:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TSi+WRX View Post
Although both Blinder and Escort have racked up what can only be said to be the most impressive miles-on-road and years-on-road data, when it comes to overall durability/reliability, neither are perfect, and evidence of this exists aplenty on the "older" community discussion Forums, such as RD.net, and also are logged in the memories of those who have been in this hobby for some time.

The Escort ZR3, for example, saw its first failures nearly a year after the product was initially introduced - and it was through this hard-won experience that Escort's reliability/durability parameters were revamped.

Yet, still, on RD.net, after the initial introduction of the current ZR4, it only took weeks - and in some cases, just days - for several members to have encountered weathersealing problems of not only the forward heads, but also even of the rear.

Obviously, although Escort's had much experience in this matter - but while their previous experience did help guide them, it could not insure that a revamped hardware design would not cause such issues, and it is clear from the experience of those early-adopters that this is well the case.

Even now, we need to remember that the new ZR4 has seen less time-on-road than even the replacement batch of LI heads, claimed as a part of their warranty services (to add to this example, one needs to be reminded that we did not see issues with the LI's initial-US-batch [ver. 8.0 heads] until well after MONTHS of use, in-comparison to the same rash of issues with the ZR4, after only weeks). Furthermore, that the ZR4, in comparison to the current-iteration LPP, now stands well beyond a year, in trailing availability of durability/reliability data.

---


Again, I want to make something crystal-clear to anyone reading this thread - or any of my other posts.

I have no vested interest in *any* of these devices. I don't stand to make any money from any of what I've said. I'm not an importer/distributor/wholeseller/retailer/reseller. I don't stand to partake of *any* kind of benefit from anyone - not even a discount on products.

I'm a totally independent hobbyist, a fellow consumer, just like any of you other "Average Joes."

I have no ties to anyone in this industry.

Heck, I don't even have any ties to any hobbyist groups.

What I've posted/said is all true, and can be verified by searching past posts on RadarDetector.net, RadarReviews.net, the LPP Support Forums, and the LI Forums. Anywhere you'd like to try to research any of these topics, you'll see what I've said to be true - and that what I say in one community will always carry over to another.

The truth is the truth, and that's all that I want to paint for my fellow hobbyists.


TSi+WRX's Sig:- Allen/Usual Suspect "DumboRAT"/One of the Three Stooges

LI Rev.2.8, Ver.7.03 - quad 8.0A-f w/ 8.5 Slim-r
LPP v8.3h(CAN/AU)/10.1s, 2xF/1xR
9500i, Red (4307) w/ZR3
VEIL G4
CR8APL8s, w/LaserShield(F)
Cheetah GPS-Mirror

[ Wifey's FXT -> Bue 8500x50 (Rev.5); LI Rev.2.9, Ver.7.08 - dual 8.5 ]

Me: '05 Legacy 2.5GT Ltd., mildly modified
Wifey: '09 Forester XT, barely modded
Baby-Anna: too short to reach any pedals!
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