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  #16 (permalink)   IP: 129.22.226.41
Old 2008-10-29
TSi+WRX TSi+WRX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steagall1000 View Post
TSi+WRX

RD.net has really no creditability when it comes to these discussions on jammer reliability.
I understand your hostility towards the RD.net community, based on what they exposed of your past sales tactics, but honestly, this kind of assault on its membership - mostly honorable independent hobbyists - is uncalled for.

Quote:
Considering the fact that RD.net is all about the LI and LPP....
You could not be more wrong.

Both LI and LPP have faced severe persecution as well as prosecution on RD.net, due to their products - at one time or another, past or present - "superiority" in terms of jamming capability, and taking away from the product sales and profit margin of the commercial side of the then-Roy's venture, RadarBusters.com (prior to its sales to NetShops).

The past history is clear and easy.

I'll address LI, first.

Two springs ago, when the prospect of the new-generation LI was announced to stateside hobbyists, the hype over the product and its then-supposed push towards stateside import legality, along with Roy's personal connections to the individuals then involved in the project, spurred the opening of a new sub-Forum (in that Forums' convention, a "Conference"), dedicated specifically to the LI. At that time, Roy promised that free discussion of the product would be allowed there, but that was pending the import/legality status of this item - and, undoubtedly, the not-so-invisible subtext being its sales and availability on RadarBusters. When the LI was later unable to - or its makers unwilling to - test the legal waters here, stateside, the Conference was pulled, completely erased, and, at the time, SEVERE restrictions placed on the Forum membership in the freedom to discuss this item, as well as, to-encompass, anything but either Blinder or Escort laser jammers. Towards this end, the community completely and totally rebelled, with many of its long-time members going so far as to resigning their Forum Admin. or Moderator positions, and many longstanding members vocally upset over Roy's decree.

Roy was then able to negotiate a truce with NetShop's management, allowing for the free discussion - on a technical level - of such items, but with standing restrictions placed both on public-Forum advertisement/redirection to the sales of the "black-listed" jammers, as well as the same prohibition being enacted to "Private Messages," which, on that Forum, are still monitored and within Admin. control.

Since then, both temporary as well as permanent bans have been enacted, based on such premise - and to-date, the direct or indirect sales of any active laser jammer, with the exception of Blinder and Escort products, is still an actionable offense.

And to prove this very point, in an action which PRE-DATES my posting here on this thread, it is clear to everyone that Roy and the RD.net staff continues to make-good on this promise:

Reminder - Avoid the Ban! - Radar Detector Jammer Forum

Both Cliff, the stateside representative for LI, as well as mhardy, whose business interests include not only Blinder - a Forum "approved" jammer - but also LaserMask, one which falls on the "blacklist," were temporarily banned this past weekend (prior to the public announcement made by Roy, REF: Reminder - Avoid the Ban! - Radar Detector Jammer Forum , pending the changes to their Forum .sig files and personal contact info.

Anyone who has been around in this community for the past year and a half can well attest to the FACTS that I've described, in-detail, above.

And despite the LI "Conference" having been removed, outright, from the RD.net Forums, the fallout from said event can still be traced with a diligent search of past posts on just about ANY of the RD.net sub-Forums/"Conferences," with originating posts dating back to April through September of 2007.

With the LPP, the same has been true, but you'll have to have been here since that product came not just to the attention of stateside hobbyists, but started becoming an item marketed directly from a North American source - in 2006.

In the first half of 2006, several members of the RD.net Forums were forcefully expelled - key among those were The Goons, who had then taken up the warcry for the LPP, based, as best as anyone could guess, out of sheer greed, in sensing that this was the best to have come along, and that the business prospect of having these items pre-imported and ready-for-sale in the North American, and specifically, the US, market, was too good to pass-up.

[ Aside -- It should be noted that when The Goons sensed their next quick-cash scheme, the LaserStar, they then immediately jumped-ship from the LPP, and furthermore, immediately began a targeted marketing campaign to dissuade potential buyers from going the route of the LPP. Much of this can be traced through my contributions to the following two threads on RR.net:

CONSUMER ALERT!! Laser Star officially sucks balls - Radar Detector Reviews & Radar Detectors Review Forum & Test
Escort Passport 9500ci or Laser Interceptor - Radar Detector Reviews & Radar Detectors Review Forum & Test ]


But also among such expelled and/or exiled (read: those who still participate on RD.net, but no longer contribute nearly as much as they used to, which is a shame, due to the extent of their technical knowledge, particularly of the international scene) were many true enthusiasts.

And in terms of present-day prejudice AGAINST the LPP, on RD.net:

You can well see what kind of lackluster response the LPP has generated on RD.net, ever since the LI came ashore, and started living up to the GOL-tested claims as-verified by independent hobbyists and hobbyist groups.

Most recently, due to the lack of proper response to the TruSpeed threat by LPP-UK/KMPH-UK, and through the latest (informal) CFL testing group meeting's data, which showed the pre-100 PPS fix version of the LPP (a latest-version, 100-PPS fix enabled variant, is due to be tested at the upcoming CFL #8) in being unable to properly jam/respond to the TruSpeed, you will note that many members of the community, myself included, who have been longtime supporters/users of the LPP, have voiced our anger and disappointment regarding this issue on that Forum.

And all of this still ignores the simple fact that RadarBusters - RD.net's commercial side, now owned by NetShops - sells the Escort and Blinder products, exclusive to any other such device.

Furthermore, it ignores also the fact that Roy has been repeatedly challenged by his own Forum members - myself included - on his early testing/observations of the ZR4's performance (i.e. the SML-testing debacle, which led him to even pull that particular entry from his personal Blog, but which was later found by an independent member of the RD.net Forum, via an Internet cache search, and subsequently publicly posted and "outed").

Additionally, Blinder maintains an active official presence on RD.net, and it has plenty of proponents and adherents there, both in terms of newcomers as well as long-time members - myself, happya$$, and crazyVOLVOrob being among such.

To say that RD.net is biased towards either LI or LPP is a completely false statement, and what I have written above serves as exhaustive proof.

Quote:
[referencing the LI and LPP]....which have shown horrible reliability over the years.
This is again an inaccurate statement.

The current-generation (physical construct, not firmware-related) LPP has been on-market since 2007 (discounting the first available from North-America, which dates back to the second half of 2006, that were reportedly of a "last batch" manufactured in Croatia, before the official establishment of KMPH-UK/LPP-UK, and the manufacture then relocated to the UK) and it has not seen *ANY* of the weathersealing issues that's plagued its sister, the AL G8.

And although the LI's introductory batch to the US (as well as Taiwan), the 8.0-version heads, saw an approximately 70% rate-of-failure, due to weathersealing imperfection, there has been, to the best of my knowledge, no claims against the same issue since, with only three claims of outright faulty heads/c-boxes (individual, unrelated cases), to-date, since the warranty-replacements of that initial batch came to our shores.

Quote:
Diodes just can't live up to the overall durability that the Blinder and escort have. Yes the Diodes jam really good, but most customers don't want a unit that after 3-6 months is already having issues. Really when it comes down to it the Blinder and escort are the Honda's of reliability compared to the LI's and LPP's of the Ford reliability. What customers want is a low priced jammer, with good jamming performance and reliability. The LI's and LPP's just don't stack up in the reliability or price category. If you can show me a Diode jammer that has made it 9 years without having any serious issues, and can still jam most of the laser guns today, then I challenge you!! The only jammer I have heard of after 9 years is the old Blinder M-10. The LED technology has proven to be better all around in each department. Price, reliability, and performance!!
I don't think it is fair to make such a comparison, yet.

The reason is simple - both Blinder and Escort have been around for so long, marketing what is, essentially, the same product (albeit with evolutionary improvements) and that this has allowed those very products to essentially learn from their past mistakes, and to become better and more solid.

With the laser-diode jammer makers, their young "age" simply means that mistakes will be made.

Look at Blinder and Escort, back when their products first entered the market. As I've cited in my previous post, neither companies can claim a blemish-free history, either in terms of weathersealing or of performance/customer-satisfaction (look at what happened with the Blinder and the Stalker issue, way back, as well as, more recently, the acidic fallout for some long-time Blinder proponents, regarding the J11 performance and lack of upgrade support - as well as what eventually happened with the Escort ZR3, and its inability to simply keep with the times).

What I'm trying to say both here and in my previous post above is that it's not that easy to make such durability/reliability claims. That I think VEIL Guy's painted picture is a bit too peachy, a bit as if viewed through rose-tinted glasses. A bit too optimistic.

That, given the past (and early-time-point) problems that each of even these big and established companies saw of their jammers during said items' early days, that such a claim, particularly at the current time, when both the ZR4 and the J16 Blinder units have yet to reach their one-year anniversary, is both premature and short-sighted.

Yes, in the greater context, the superiority of both Blinder and Escort's jammers, in terms of particularly their durability and reliability, is unsurpassed.

But that's not, at the current time, a fair comparison - given the young age of the SPECIFIC products in-question. To try to brush over this fact, that neither the J16 nor the ZR4 have even seen one year on-road, and that, at-best, their durability/reliability can only be compared to all but the newest of the laser-diode jammers that is seen as their competition, is to lie by omission.

To anyone who can think in a logical and reasoned manner, this glaring fault stands out, and simply cannot be ignored.

----

Instead, I think that if one must push a similar marketing ideal, one should simply ask this question:

How long have the companies in-question been around - and who will still be here tomorrow, a year down the line, or a decade down the line to support the products that they sell, today.


TSi+WRX's Sig:- Allen/Usual Suspect "DumboRAT"/One of the Three Stooges

LI Rev.2.8, Ver.7.03 - quad 8.0A-f w/ 8.5 Slim-r
LPP v8.3h(CAN/AU)/10.1s, 2xF/1xR
9500i, Red (4307) w/ZR3
VEIL G4
CR8APL8s, w/LaserShield(F)
Cheetah GPS-Mirror

[ Wifey's FXT -> Bue 8500x50 (Rev.5); LI Rev.2.9, Ver.7.08 - dual 8.5 ]

Me: '05 Legacy 2.5GT Ltd., mildly modified
Wifey: '09 Forester XT, barely modded
Baby-Anna: too short to reach any pedals!
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  #17 (permalink)   IP: 192.251.125.85
Old 2008-10-30
steagall1000 steagall1000 is offline
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Default Hmmmmm!!

TSi+WRX,

I was not surprised by your text book answer to this posting. Facts are facts, so you can't argue that!!! Your welcomed to your opinion TSi+WRX.









Quote:
Originally Posted by TSi+WRX View Post
I understand your hostility towards the RD.net community, based on what they exposed of your past sales tactics, but honestly, this kind of assault on its membership - mostly honorable independent hobbyists - is uncalled for.



You could not be more wrong.

Both LI and LPP have faced severe persecution as well as prosecution on RD.net, due to their products - at one time or another, past or present - "superiority" in terms of jamming capability, and taking away from the product sales and profit margin of the commercial side of the then-Roy's venture, RadarBusters.com (prior to its sales to NetShops).

The past history is clear and easy.

I'll address LI, first.

Two springs ago, when the prospect of the new-generation LI was announced to stateside hobbyists, the hype over the product and its then-supposed push towards stateside import legality, along with Roy's personal connections to the individuals then involved in the project, spurred the opening of a new sub-Forum (in that Forums' convention, a "Conference"), dedicated specifically to the LI. At that time, Roy promised that free discussion of the product would be allowed there, but that was pending the import/legality status of this item - and, undoubtedly, the not-so-invisible subtext being its sales and availability on RadarBusters. When the LI was later unable to - or its makers unwilling to - test the legal waters here, stateside, the Conference was pulled, completely erased, and, at the time, SEVERE restrictions placed on the Forum membership in the freedom to discuss this item, as well as, to-encompass, anything but either Blinder or Escort laser jammers. Towards this end, the community completely and totally rebelled, with many of its long-time members going so far as to resigning their Forum Admin. or Moderator positions, and many longstanding members vocally upset over Roy's decree.

Roy was then able to negotiate a truce with NetShop's management, allowing for the free discussion - on a technical level - of such items, but with standing restrictions placed both on public-Forum advertisement/redirection to the sales of the "black-listed" jammers, as well as the same prohibition being enacted to "Private Messages," which, on that Forum, are still monitored and within Admin. control.

Since then, both temporary as well as permanent bans have been enacted, based on such premise - and to-date, the direct or indirect sales of any active laser jammer, with the exception of Blinder and Escort products, is still an actionable offense.

And to prove this very point, in an action which PRE-DATES my posting here on this thread, it is clear to everyone that Roy and the RD.net staff continues to make-good on this promise:

Reminder - Avoid the Ban! - Radar Detector Jammer Forum

Both Cliff, the stateside representative for LI, as well as mhardy, whose business interests include not only Blinder - a Forum "approved" jammer - but also LaserMask, one which falls on the "blacklist," were temporarily banned this past weekend (prior to the public announcement made by Roy, REF: Reminder - Avoid the Ban! - Radar Detector Jammer Forum , pending the changes to their Forum .sig files and personal contact info.

Anyone who has been around in this community for the past year and a half can well attest to the FACTS that I've described, in-detail, above.

And despite the LI "Conference" having been removed, outright, from the RD.net Forums, the fallout from said event can still be traced with a diligent search of past posts on just about ANY of the RD.net sub-Forums/"Conferences," with originating posts dating back to April through September of 2007.

With the LPP, the same has been true, but you'll have to have been here since that product came not just to the attention of stateside hobbyists, but started becoming an item marketed directly from a North American source - in 2006.

In the first half of 2006, several members of the RD.net Forums were forcefully expelled - key among those were The Goons, who had then taken up the warcry for the LPP, based, as best as anyone could guess, out of sheer greed, in sensing that this was the best to have come along, and that the business prospect of having these items pre-imported and ready-for-sale in the North American, and specifically, the US, market, was too good to pass-up.

[ Aside -- It should be noted that when The Goons sensed their next quick-cash scheme, the LaserStar, they then immediately jumped-ship from the LPP, and furthermore, immediately began a targeted marketing campaign to dissuade potential buyers from going the route of the LPP. Much of this can be traced through my contributions to the following two threads on RR.net:

CONSUMER ALERT!! Laser Star officially sucks balls - Radar Detector Reviews & Radar Detectors Review Forum & Test
Escort Passport 9500ci or Laser Interceptor - Radar Detector Reviews & Radar Detectors Review Forum & Test ]


But also among such expelled and/or exiled (read: those who still participate on RD.net, but no longer contribute nearly as much as they used to, which is a shame, due to the extent of their technical knowledge, particularly of the international scene) were many true enthusiasts.

And in terms of present-day prejudice AGAINST the LPP, on RD.net:

You can well see what kind of lackluster response the LPP has generated on RD.net, ever since the LI came ashore, and started living up to the GOL-tested claims as-verified by independent hobbyists and hobbyist groups.

Most recently, due to the lack of proper response to the TruSpeed threat by LPP-UK/KMPH-UK, and through the latest (informal) CFL testing group meeting's data, which showed the pre-100 PPS fix version of the LPP (a latest-version, 100-PPS fix enabled variant, is due to be tested at the upcoming CFL #8) in being unable to properly jam/respond to the TruSpeed, you will note that many members of the community, myself included, who have been longtime supporters/users of the LPP, have voiced our anger and disappointment regarding this issue on that Forum.

And all of this still ignores the simple fact that RadarBusters - RD.net's commercial side, now owned by NetShops - sells the Escort and Blinder products, exclusive to any other such device.

Furthermore, it ignores also the fact that Roy has been repeatedly challenged by his own Forum members - myself included - on his early testing/observations of the ZR4's performance (i.e. the SML-testing debacle, which led him to even pull that particular entry from his personal Blog, but which was later found by an independent member of the RD.net Forum, via an Internet cache search, and subsequently publicly posted and "outed").

Additionally, Blinder maintains an active official presence on RD.net, and it has plenty of proponents and adherents there, both in terms of newcomers as well as long-time members - myself, happya$$, and crazyVOLVOrob being among such.

To say that RD.net is biased towards either LI or LPP is a completely false statement, and what I have written above serves as exhaustive proof.



This is again an inaccurate statement.

The current-generation (physical construct, not firmware-related) LPP has been on-market since 2007 (discounting the first available from North-America, which dates back to the second half of 2006, that were reportedly of a "last batch" manufactured in Croatia, before the official establishment of KMPH-UK/LPP-UK, and the manufacture then relocated to the UK) and it has not seen *ANY* of the weathersealing issues that's plagued its sister, the AL G8.

And although the LI's introductory batch to the US (as well as Taiwan), the 8.0-version heads, saw an approximately 70% rate-of-failure, due to weathersealing imperfection, there has been, to the best of my knowledge, no claims against the same issue since, with only three claims of outright faulty heads/c-boxes (individual, unrelated cases), to-date, since the warranty-replacements of that initial batch came to our shores.



I don't think it is fair to make such a comparison, yet.

The reason is simple - both Blinder and Escort have been around for so long, marketing what is, essentially, the same product (albeit with evolutionary improvements) and that this has allowed those very products to essentially learn from their past mistakes, and to become better and more solid.

With the laser-diode jammer makers, their young "age" simply means that mistakes will be made.

Look at Blinder and Escort, back when their products first entered the market. As I've cited in my previous post, neither companies can claim a blemish-free history, either in terms of weathersealing or of performance/customer-satisfaction (look at what happened with the Blinder and the Stalker issue, way back, as well as, more recently, the acidic fallout for some long-time Blinder proponents, regarding the J11 performance and lack of upgrade support - as well as what eventually happened with the Escort ZR3, and its inability to simply keep with the times).

What I'm trying to say both here and in my previous post above is that it's not that easy to make such durability/reliability claims. That I think VEIL Guy's painted picture is a bit too peachy, a bit as if viewed through rose-tinted glasses. A bit too optimistic.

That, given the past (and early-time-point) problems that each of even these big and established companies saw of their jammers during said items' early days, that such a claim, particularly at the current time, when both the ZR4 and the J16 Blinder units have yet to reach their one-year anniversary, is both premature and short-sighted.

Yes, in the greater context, the superiority of both Blinder and Escort's jammers, in terms of particularly their durability and reliability, is unsurpassed.

But that's not, at the current time, a fair comparison - given the young age of the SPECIFIC products in-question. To try to brush over this fact, that neither the J16 nor the ZR4 have even seen one year on-road, and that, at-best, their durability/reliability can only be compared to all but the newest of the laser-diode jammers that is seen as their competition, is to lie by omission.

To anyone who can think in a logical and reasoned manner, this glaring fault stands out, and simply cannot be ignored.

----

Instead, I think that if one must push a similar marketing ideal, one should simply ask this question:

How long have the companies in-question been around - and who will still be here tomorrow, a year down the line, or a decade down the line to support the products that they sell, today.

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  #18 (permalink)   IP: 76.190.193.28
Old 2008-10-30
TSi+WRX TSi+WRX is offline
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Yep, the facts are just that, the facts.

I'm a firm believer in the old saying: "the truth will out."

Anyone - and I mean *anyone* - who is willing to look up the old posts on both RadarDetector.net and RadarReviews.net can see *all* of the facts that I cited above, everything from your conflict with the members on RD.net and false-claims of the '08 GOL Laser Jammer Shootout, to the persecution and targeting of LI and LPP retailers/resellers, to the early failures of the ZR4s, as well as the historical log of failures of the Blinder units.

My "opinion" really has nothing to do with it.

The facts are facts, and they're available for anyone to research and read, and I feel strongly that every consumer should be an educated consumer.

They owe it to themselves to know the full story, the unbiased truths, and the historical context of what evolved.

They owe it to themselves to know what they're spending their money on, and they owe it to themselves to confirm what is actually true, with their own diligent research.

It doesn't matter what my opinions and personal feelings are - what matters is the fair and honest truth, and that's all, and that is the only thing which I have tried to present above.

Anyone who takes the time to research their purchases - to be an educated consumer - will see that what I have said can easily be confirmed.

My only role, as a truly independent hobbyist, with absolutely no vested interests in any party, is to help my fellow hobbyists come to a choice that will best meet their own unique criteria, their own unique needs and demands. My role is to simply present facts, and to thus facilitate - based on complete and untainted truths - the decision process of those who may come here to ask questions.

---

Edit:

Oh, as if to prove the case, even more, that RD.net/RadarBusters.com is not "anti-Blinder" .....

Radar Roy's e-mail/Blog listserve just sent out a special offer on the Blinder. I just got the notice in my e-mail inbox a little while ago.

Anyone and everyone can easily tell that RD.net has never seen strong anti-Blinder sentiment - with one of the longest running Blinder technical discussion Forums, plenty of longstanding members who have historically been its most vocal supporters, and, indeed, is even the stomping ground of none other than the good Blinder Dude, himself, as well as reputable authorized Blinder dealers, such as mhardy2288 ( http://www.speedtraphunter.net/members/mhardy2288.html ).




TSi+WRX's Sig:- Allen/Usual Suspect "DumboRAT"/One of the Three Stooges

LI Rev.2.8, Ver.7.03 - quad 8.0A-f w/ 8.5 Slim-r
LPP v8.3h(CAN/AU)/10.1s, 2xF/1xR
9500i, Red (4307) w/ZR3
VEIL G4
CR8APL8s, w/LaserShield(F)
Cheetah GPS-Mirror

[ Wifey's FXT -> Bue 8500x50 (Rev.5); LI Rev.2.9, Ver.7.08 - dual 8.5 ]

Me: '05 Legacy 2.5GT Ltd., mildly modified
Wifey: '09 Forester XT, barely modded
Baby-Anna: too short to reach any pedals!
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  #19 (permalink)   IP: 129.22.226.41
Old 2008-11-05
TSi+WRX TSi+WRX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steagall1000 View Post
Considering the fact that RD.net is all about the LI and LPP....
Again, to prove that this is a most wrong assertion:

YouTube - Blinder Laser Jammer - SEMA 2008

That's Radar Roy, himself, with Blinder Dude.

In Roy's own words, we see a reflection of the support that the RadarDetector.net Forum/community has given to Blinder, not just now, but over the years.


TSi+WRX's Sig:- Allen/Usual Suspect "DumboRAT"/One of the Three Stooges

LI Rev.2.8, Ver.7.03 - quad 8.0A-f w/ 8.5 Slim-r
LPP v8.3h(CAN/AU)/10.1s, 2xF/1xR
9500i, Red (4307) w/ZR3
VEIL G4
CR8APL8s, w/LaserShield(F)
Cheetah GPS-Mirror

[ Wifey's FXT -> Bue 8500x50 (Rev.5); LI Rev.2.9, Ver.7.08 - dual 8.5 ]

Me: '05 Legacy 2.5GT Ltd., mildly modified
Wifey: '09 Forester XT, barely modded
Baby-Anna: too short to reach any pedals!
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  #20 (permalink)   IP: 192.168.1.1
Old 2008-11-05
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Veil Guy Veil Guy is offline
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TSi+WRX,

That was good stuff.

Thanks for sharing.

Veil Guy


Veil Guy's Sig:

Protect yourself from speeding tickets[/b] with the VEIL stealth coating.

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