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  #26 (permalink)   IP: 76.190.193.28
Old 2009-06-28
TSi+WRX TSi+WRX is offline
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^ Well said. Indeed, that's very clear, and very well-thought.

-----

With specific regard to the LI/RD.net issue - I find all of that very, very, er.....weird......

I keep trying to make logic of it all, but I've consistently failed. Some of the time-line components just don't line-up, and the various claims, even "from the horses' mouth," just do not align.

Nothing that concerns/involves you, VEIL Guy. Rather, it's just the specific parties/Forums involved. It's never quite made full sense to me, what had happened.

I'm headed off to dreamland, now, but I'll be back in the next day or so, to try to sum up.

I just don't quite "get it."


TSi+WRX's Sig:- Allen/Usual Suspect "DumboRAT"/One of the Three Stooges

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[ Wifey's FXT -> Bue 8500x50 (Rev.5); LI Rev.2.9, Ver.7.08 - dual 8.5 ]

Me: '05 Legacy 2.5GT Ltd., mildly modified
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  #27 (permalink)   IP: 192.168.2.1
Old 2009-06-28
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Speed Trap Hunter Speed Trap Hunter is offline
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Nor do I...but generally where there is smoke, there's fire.

Pleasant dreams...

STH


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  #28 (permalink)   IP: 4.159.74.46
Old 2009-06-28
Stealth Enthusiast Stealth Enthusiast is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSi+WRX View Post
how did you arrive at your LI purchase
Easy. Suffice it to say that I bought them for roughly half of what most other people did. I was just at the right place at the right time and so as an investor it was a simple matter. I knew when I bought them that even if I sold them years from now that I would not lose any money, and thatís what a good investment is all about.

Quote:
if they are enforceable/actionable, then why have the concerned parties chosen to NOT pursue enforcement?
What makes you think they arenít? I know from personal experience being involved in class action lawsuits that while the suit is going forward the last thing that you do is talk about it publicly with anyone! If you utter one word then you can be fairly certain that your legal team will pack up and go bye-bye. So you let them handle it and just stay quiet. Just because you havenít seen or heard anything on ďforumsĒ doesnít mean jack. It might well be under way and no one but the parities concerned would know.

Quote:
"Honoring the patent" says nothing to me, as a pure consumer. Instead, it's "honoring the warranty" and "honoring service" that will cause me to vote with my checkbook
I would never willingly jump out of a airplane without a parachute. Youíd put yourself as a consumer in the situation where youíd have to spend a lot of money shipping your device overseas to them, and as I see it, you shouldnít have to pay anything if a warranty is in effect. I donít even want to know what it would cost to ship something to another country. I imagine it canít be cheap. So I first need to know that a company is stable. Like anything else in this world, if itís not stable then it is like a house made out of cards and can tumble at any moment. You donít get a second chance to make a decision like this. IMO you simply canít compare the stability of a company like Bel/Escort with a company like LI. Nothing mystical about that. Yes, I want the products that I buy to have good performance, BUT there are such a thing as priorities, and the most important thing about buying a jammer is knowing that you will be able to use it tomorrow. If that werenít the case then LPP jammers would be flying off the shelves right now.

Quote:
He modified the ZR4s
My kind of guy. Where do I get the schematic at? Too bad he doesnít live in the area, I could make him a rich guy. So is there a thread or anything that I could learn more about this?

Quote:
Why would these companies not choose to enforce the rights that are afforded them by their patents?
Previously answered. Stay tuned. You may well wake up one morning and read the answer to your question.

Quote:
There's such ill-will engendered in the community now that anyone threatening the "legal big stick" will be seen as having cowered in the face of a true performance-based duel.
I wouldnít have worded it as that. I would have said ďanyone threatening the "legal big stick" will be seen by those who donít know or understand the law as having cowered in the face of a true performance-based duelĒ. Bottom line, whoever came up with the first design and patent, holds the power. No matter how you dress it up you canít get around that. They are in such a good position that they could actually dissolve their competition and hire them to work for them. For all you know that may be exactly what they are talking about behind closed doors. Imagine Blinder and LI merging, or maybe LI becoming a sub-company of Blinder, who knows but the parties involved? It all depends on what they agree upon before their legal teams shake hands. Anything is possible but one thing is certain, whoever holds the patent has the law on their side, and rightfully so, and these other companies wonít be able to get around that.

Quote:
I would much rather see that go to Blinder
As I understand it they already hold them. Has something else been revealed that shows that they didnít hold the original designs?

Quote:
another company which has been more responsive to the concerns of the countermeasures enthusiast/hobbyist community.
When youíre a small company you can move quickly. When youíre a giant you move slowly. Thatís just the way it is. It (sadly) takes Bel/Escort some time to do things, but that doesnít necessarily mean that they arenít concerned about doing them. It usually just means that they have a lot more red tape to go through before the consumer sees any results.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Speed Trap Hunter
If you have ever been involved with IP (the patenting process) you would know that proper patenting takes literally years and cost literally hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Going through that right now. No one would willingly go through this process if you didn't have to. People just don't understand that you could pay all this money for a patent and still not get the patent and you lose all of your money. Part of the patent process should be joining gamblers anonomous But consider the alternative, if you don't protect your design then the bottom feeders will be like vultures and rip you off every way that they can.

Quote:
I am disappointed that many/most in our industry's online community don't have better solidarity and stand-behind the companies that actually created or enabled the industry to exist in first place
I guess that would make too much sense for some of these people. They should be showing their respect for the company that created this industry in the first place. I mean, if it wasn't for them then every police force would just be using lasers and not X, K or Ka, because consumers would have no means to protect themselves against laser. People should be thanking and supporting these innovative companies that make our countermeasures community stronger, and not be trying to rip them off. It is realy, realy sad to see some of these otherwise very educated guys, putting their energy against the companies that are helping the countermeasures community the most. It's almost as if they don't appreciate this community or that they want to take advantage of it

Quote:
The patent-infringer or reverse-engineer is already NOT playing on the same playing field because they have used the found knowledge already disclosed in the published patents without having to spend the fortune to not only do the initial ground-breaking discovery work but the protection of it, as well.
Well said! Here is my question to anyone who claims that the patent should be ignored so that the 'best performing' product can stay on top. If you're so confident in any other company, then why can't that company come up with an equally good design on their own? Aren't they talented enough to come up with their own design and put their own patent on it? You know it's really easy to rip off someone else's hard work, but it's hard to be the first with a good innovative design. Who came up with the first design in the first place? IMO that right there should tell you who has the better design team. Sure, other people can take what you design and tweak it, but that's not the same thing as coming up with the idea and breathing life into it in the first place.

Quote:
For me there are more important things than money/profit or "success in business." Things like ethics, integrity, loyalty, honor..
Amen to that!

Ethics and integrity should always be at the forefront of ANY company. Money is not always the most important thing. Doing the right thing for your customers is.
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  #29 (permalink)   IP: 192.168.2.1
Old 2009-06-29
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Veil Guy Veil Guy is offline
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Allen,

Quote:
But my question here - a practical one - is this:

Why has Blinder and Escort - and whomever holds the patent, if there exists a separate one, for the use of laser-diodes as applied to active LIDAR jammer manufacture/sale - has not pressed to shut down these upstarts?

Yes, as with any other adult, I know well that these upstarts could then go underground, to be sold on the black or black-gray market.

But why, if every dollar truly counts as much as we hobbyists think it does, of this industry, do these patent holders not at least shut down the supposed "retail" operations of the other jammers?
Please allow me the privilege of playing an alphabet game with you to try to shed some possible light on your valid question.

As the owner of my company (and its chief inventor) I know a thing or two myself about the patent process, as I have been involved with it since the early-mid-90s (which by the way preceded any commercially available laser jammers by quite some time).

Having a long-term and trusted relationship with a strong multi-national IP law-firm or firms, certainly helps if one is interested in marketing globally (as we are).

But, beyond the sheer expense and "gamble" that we patent owners take (often at great risk to our family's livelihood), there exists similar expense-risks for actually prosecuting it's enforcement and that journey is not without its own inherent sets of risk.

Now realizing all this, let's play the alphabet game to address the specifics of your question. And by all means, I am not suggesting that what I will be laying out here is fact, for it isn't. I trust it is a least, thoughtful speculation or perhaps better described as an academic exercise.

Ok, here we go:

Let's suppose that small company B has created a laser jammer design that has received one or more (international or domestic) patents.

Now established company E later comes along and has also created and marketed a laser jammer (perhaps even calling its function by another name).

Let's suppose that company E has many more resources at its disposal than say the smaller company B.

No comes along an up-start company L which appears to be marketing a product in a particular market that may be infringing on company B.

Now let's suppose that a hugely successful marketer R which also sells many more products from company E offers some form of support to this up-start company L.

Question: Would the interest of company E not be served by having company B involved with overcoming interference to its marketing from company L or the possibility that company B would be tied up with litigation with company L?

Would not certain sales functions promoting company's E products potentially benefit from the smaller company B being tied up with either a PR/marketing/legal entanglement?

Would not a large company with a lot of resources (like company E) be able to tolerate or withstand the FUD factor (as SE has suggested) created online (namely on marketer's R sales-tool F) for all of their perceived competitors? Could they not accept a certain percentage of lost sales as a consequence knowing or anticipating any legal entanglement(s) of other competitors would likely hurt the other companies more disproportionately?

Isn't this hypothetical alphabet game, a possible sales/marketing strategy for certain companies or industries? If, not at least, a convenient dynamic to inure to their benefit?

And please, given the sensitivity (or the timeliness) of the aforementioned subject, I do not wish to attribute or have attributed any names of real individuals or real companies to any (choice of) letters, to protect the innocent.

This was an academic exercise to suggest one possible (I repeat one possible) scenario.

This was purely a hypothetical & academic exercise to attempt one possible suggestion to your question, Allen.

============

Stealth Enthusiast,

I applaud your IP quest. It's both a painful and joyful experience and one that I hope will bear fruit for you one day.

Quote:
, Honor...
To that I would add, being principled especially when it's not popular...

When all of this unfolded. while I was a founding Admin, on RD.net, I was publicly humiliated and castigated with rude and hurtful invective by those most anxious to see Blinder (and perhaps Veil) crash-and-burn.

I think I would be foolish not to believe that my image or my company's products weren't "tarnished" to some degree (if even only for a short time) as the perception was (held by some) that I was covering for another manufacturer (ie; Blinder). Did our company's sales take a hit? I suspect they did. Did this event hurt us? It certainly personally hurt.

It has been a long and (sometimes lonely feeling) walk along the pathway. But, like then, I believe I had come to the crossroads and took the right path, the one that leads to building/forging character.

Time is a funny thing. Time ultimately gives perspective and that leads to wisdom. And that is always a good thing.

Veil Guy


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Protect yourself from speeding tickets[/b] with the VEIL stealth coating.

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  #30 (permalink)   IP: 4.159.74.205
Old 2009-06-29
Stealth Enthusiast Stealth Enthusiast is offline
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil Guy View Post
Let's suppose that small company B has created a laser jammer design that has received one or more (international or domestic) patents.

Now established company E later comes along and has also created and marketed a laser jammer (perhaps even calling its function by another name).

Let's suppose that company E has many more resources at its disposal than say the smaller company B.

No comes along an up-start company L which appears to be marketing a product in a particular market that may be infringing on company B.

Now let's suppose that a hugely successful marketer R which also sells many more products from company E offers some form of support to this up-start company L.

Question: Would the interest of company E not be served by having company B involved with overcoming interference to its marketing from company L or the possibility that company B would be tied up with litigation with company L?

Would not certain sales functions promoting company's E products potentially benefit from the smaller company B being tied up with either a PR/marketing/legal entanglement?

Would not a large company with a lot of resources (like company E) be able to tolerate or withstand the FUD factor (as SE has suggested) created online (namely on marketer's R sales-tool F) for all of their perceived competitors? Could they not accept a certain percentage of lost sales as a consequence knowing or anticipating any legal entanglement(s) of other competitors would likely hurt the other companies more disproportionately?

Isn't this hypothetical alphabet game, a possible sales/marketing strategy for certain companies or industries? If, not at least, a convenient dynamic to inure to their benefit?
All very good points.

People for some reason seem to think that if you are on the right side of the law that it costs less to be involved in a lawsuit. They think ahh... it should be easy for them to win, but that's just not the reality of it. It's not so black or white. The other side has attorneys too. It gets messy. This happens many times with the law. Plus protecting a patent isn't like protecting a copyright. Nothing says that company B has to pursue this right now. They may have a different legal strategy. You don't have to know about legal jargon to know this. How many times have you heard in your lifetime about a woman that was raped but didn't want to pursue court action. Maybe it would have been too traumatic for her to relive it. Maybe the rapist threatened her family and she became scared to pursue it. Maybe it would have destroyed her career, or she simply can't financially afford to pursue it. The point here is simple. Just because you are on the right side of the law and you don't bring a matter to court DOESN'T mean the 'other side' is innocent. That's not how the law works. However we all know who came up with the first design of the jammer. We all know who first worked hard to develop it for us consumers. They deserve our support, not the leaches that live to rip them off.

Quote:
Stealth Enthusiast, I applaud your IP quest. It's both a painful and joyful experience and one that I hope will bear fruit for you one day.
Thank you so much! The thought of having to repeat this process several more times is daunting. Wish there was an easier way to protect ones designs. Out of every single thing involved with operating a company, the start up costs, the actual design of products, the advertising, the constant researching, all of the governments paperwork, the time and costs of prototyping, etc., etc. getting the patent is the hardest part of the entire process. People do it because everything else that has to do with a company could be undermined in short order if you don't do it. I respect every person/company that has dealt with this process.
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