Speed Trap Hunter Forum: Best Radar Detectors, Laser Jammers, Laser Detectors, Speed Cameras Forum  

Go Back   Speed Trap Hunter Forum: Best Radar Detectors, Laser Jammers, Laser Detectors, Speed Cameras Forum > Speed Trap Countermeasures > Laser Jammers
Radar Detectors Forum Logon:


Laser Jammers Discussion forum related to laser jammers and laser jamming.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #21 (permalink)   IP: 76.190.193.28
Old 2009-06-28
TSi+WRX TSi+WRX is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 2008 Sep
Location: Cleveland/Shaker Heights, Ohio, USA
Posts: 44
TSi+WRX is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Enthusiast View Post
So do I, but it's just the opposite as I am doing my research before selling my LI Quad

I see having a jammer as an investment. Amongst my arsenal is a LI Quad. A LI quad is (unfortunately) a substantial investment and I need to protect it. I don't care how good a jammer is, if the company behind it ceases to exist, then it is just a matter of time before it is worthless. Worthless is not a good word to use when refering to investments If LI has, or is about to, go belly up, then I need to sell my quad now to protect that investment.

My gut feeling is that a year and a half from now the only jammer company will be Blinder. This is because they hold the patent(s) and while LI may still be sold in places like croatia, I don't live in croatia so it it's a mute point. I only realistically care about products that are legally sold in the states. Part of buying a good investment is looking ahead. For the most part I just don't feel comfortable with any of the other companies beside Blinder right now. Thank God they make a great product or I'd probably just forget about having a jammer altogether, and just use only Veil. I think Bel/Escort might be the only other company that will honor the patent(s). They may be the only other company that can afford to honor them. Time will tell. I feel that this next year will be the most important year in jammer history. So many different things are happening, or about to happen, that will forever change the landscape. It's exciting to witness.
That's always been my thoughts, too - history, in this area, is very clear: Escort and Blinder are the only constants.

The rest are in a state of near-constant flux.

Speaking solely of the few devices that have seen sufficient market-exposure here in the states, Lidatek is now defunct, and although AntiLaser has been around for quite some time, their ownership/behind-the-scenes is far from a model of stability. Laser Pro Park is, comparatively, a new up-start, and Laser Interceptor simply trails the pack, with only a 2-year history, nearly half of which would go better unmentioned.

In examining the various detectors, I've always maintained, throughout my posts on the various Forums I participate in (both of speed-detection countermeasures as well as general automotive), that, facts are facts, and the only fact is that Blinder and Escort have endured the test of time.

[ Aside - Question: If you consider the jammer an investment, and that part of having a good investment is looking ahead, and that you're only concerned with items that are legally capable of being sold on the open market here in the States, how did you arrive at your LI purchase, in the first place? As I've reiterated and stressed to *everyone* who has ever come to me for advice, on *any* Forum which I participate in, the LI is, and has always been, a gray-market commodity. You are indeed being wise, in terms of "looking ahead" and trying to see if you need to sell your LI, but what made you decide to buy it, in the first place, for as it stood before your purchase, it fails your criteria? ]

RE: LI "proven" that they have not gone belly-up -
Quote:
Proven? On the LI forum? How does that prove anything except that they still want to make money? Was there ever (anywhere) a written document that clearly stated that they were planning on honoring the patents and that Blinder has signed off on it also? That would be proof to me that they were still going to be around in another year or so. Short of that it's really only "confirmed hearsay" of what will happen to them next.
Indeed, that's a bad choice of words, by yours truly.

No, it's not proven (although, to note, my original statement did not specifically emphasize this word - it was an honest mistake on my part, an imprecise choice of wording).

Currently, all that can be said that the RUMORED (at this point, you're right, both sides of the story is nothing more than "he-said/she-said," nothing can be confirmed, outside of what we are, literally, "hearing")"law suit" regarding Laser Interceptor has not come about, and that LI, in the way that has operated business since the current distributor/reseller took-over the mother-company "authorized" position here in the US, continues to do so in the same manner that it always has.

What I mentioned of the LI Forums thread is simply to direct you to the quickest, easiest, and most concise reference available. Through your research on other Forums, you undoubtedly came upon similar posts that either specifically mentioned this concern or otherwise may have indicated what was going on, in the background. None of any of it serves as true "proof," but without any countering arguments on the same threads, we are left with simply what we can get - and the answer is simply that LI continues to function here in the States as it has a little over a year from now, and that even on RadarDetector.net, where the stewardship is influenced by -PAYING- parties to guard said parties' interests, LI continues to be able to advertise in the limited way that it can.

Sadly, that's the only conclusion that can be drawn - and even then, nothing is truly conclusive.

As a consumer, when all the posturing and claims have been examined in a purely factual manner, neither side of that war have proven anything to me, and I think you will agree with me on that one, too.

In terms of the patents:

My question would be this - if they are enforceable/actionable, then why have the concerned parties chosen to NOT pursue enforcement?

But that is purely academic, to me, as a consumer. It's a war to be waged that I, as an end-level user, am not particularly concerned with.

Why?

Simple - the patent does not matter to me, what matters to me is protective capability/performance, and the ability of "the company" (i.e. manufacturer, reseller, etc.) to provide WARRANTY support, as well as technical support, once items are out-of-warranty.

"Honoring the patent" says nothing to me, as a pure consumer.

Instead, it's "honoring the warranty" and "honoring service" that will cause me to vote with my checkbook (ignoring any performance considerations).

And here, it wraps back to the initial part of my post above - so far, only Blinder and Escort have been seen to be able to provide any level of "stability" within this industry. They are both aboveboard companies, and have long-established histories.

Although many of the other companies have proven to be as good, if not better, at addressing customer-care issues, indeed, the question of what will happen, years from now, can only be validated with the passing of time, and none of those others have that track record to bank upon.

Note, though, that this is speaking purely as a "dollars speak" consumer, where no other thoughts matter.


RE: LPP/KMPH "name change" -
Quote:
These wouldn't be the same "LPP sources" that claimed that LPP was going to be coming out with a quick TruSpeed fix in a few months - over a year ago - would they?
Negative.

You said before that you come to this Forum community out of a disgust of the others, so I'm sure you've seen my posts on RadarDetector.net and RadarReviews.net .

It is no secret that I have, in the past, "called out" LPP_Rep (David) on RadarReviews.net - and it is also no secret that I still do not hold him in high esteem. Actually, if you will take your time to properly review those past posts, the TruSpeed issue, specifically in the claims that he made of the LPP, as well as how he continued to advertise sales/claims of such, was the precipitating cause of my current attitude towards him.

I will never take anything he says, and re-post it. Period.

So far, the only person who has made such open claims of the LPP's "TruSpeed Fix" has been this individual - no others, Stateside, have offered any kind of definitive date or range of dates to the arrival of this revision of the LPP.

Those who reported of LPP/KMPH's business concerns which have caused The Goons to make such claims are other sources, either of direct (vested interest) connection to LPP, or are otherwise known members of the true-independent hobbyist community, both in Canada as well as in the UK.

RE: ZR3 performance -
Quote:
Thank you for this. I trust your judgement and if they've worked out for you then I'm more comfortable with them
No need to thank me. I just tell it as it is.

I purchased my ZR3s in late 2003, and they've now served with me on 3 different vehicles. They're amazing detectors (as evidenced by their performance against the new TruSpeed, which was a surprise to all of us), and has proven themselves durable and reliable with time and miles. And even when some components finally malfunctioned, Escort's service of the product, off-warranty, was commendable.

I still have them on my daily-driver.

RE: ZR4 -
Quote:
What did MEM-TEK do?
He modified the ZR4s.

The specifics, I do not know - but his modifications have been tested by at least one independent hobbyist group, and the results are significantly better than when compared to factory/OEM ZR4 modules.

I believe category4 has even said that he truly thinks that the performance of the MEM-TEK modified ZR4s approaches parity with the new Blinder M27 that was previewed at their last event, during which the units were tested, concurrently.

RE: testing -
Quote:
But if all jammers are tested with the same criteria then the numbers will speak for themselves. Yes they can be exploited, anything can, but that's another topic
Indeed.

It's never simple.


TSi+WRX's Sig:- Allen/Usual Suspect "DumboRAT"/One of the Three Stooges

LI Rev.2.8, Ver.7.03 - quad 8.0A-f w/ 8.5 Slim-r
LPP v8.3h(CAN/AU)/10.1s, 2xF/1xR
9500i, Red (4307) w/ZR3
VEIL G4
CR8APL8s, w/LaserShield(F)
Cheetah GPS-Mirror

[ Wifey's FXT -> Bue 8500x50 (Rev.5); LI Rev.2.9, Ver.7.08 - dual 8.5 ]

Me: '05 Legacy 2.5GT Ltd., mildly modified
Wifey: '09 Forester XT, barely modded
Baby-Anna: too short to reach any pedals!
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)   IP: 76.190.193.28
Old 2009-06-28
TSi+WRX TSi+WRX is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 2008 Sep
Location: Cleveland/Shaker Heights, Ohio, USA
Posts: 44
TSi+WRX is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth Enthusiast View Post
How does this apply to jammers? Well simple, one company owns the patents to producing jammers, so they (Blinder) could at any given notice (if they havenít already) snap their fingers and all of the other jammer companies would go buh-bye, not because Blinder necessarily wants them to, but because the legal system wants them to.

A patent does not give the patent holder the right to do whatever they wish, BUT IT DOES give them the right from excluding others from making, selling or even using products covered by their patent. When that happens LPP, LI and all the other jammer companies that donít hold the patent will evaporate from the states faster than a snowball in the hot desert sun. I think itís fair to say that most people have at least $450.00 invested in their jammer, and thatís if they just have one jammer.

Ask yourself how much is that $450.00 or more investment going to be worth a year from now when no one wants to buy it from you - because the company doesnít exist any longer...

Ask yourself who is going to write the updates for the software when they need to be updated - if the company is no longer around...

Ask yourself who is going to honor that so-called ďwarrantyĒ - if the company is just a vacant warehouse...
I completely agree.

But my question here - a practical one - is this:

Why has Blinder and Escort - and whomever holds the patent, if there exists a separate one, for the use of laser-diodes as applied to active LIDAR jammer manufacture/sale - has not pressed to shut down these upstarts?

Yes, as with any other adult, I know well that these upstarts could then go underground, to be sold on the black or black-gray market.

But why, if every dollar truly counts as much as we hobbyists think it does, of this industry, do these patent holders not at least shut down the supposed "retail" operations of the other jammers?

I'm no lawyer.

But I'd like to consider myself at least a functional-minded adult.

In this case, then, I can't help but think that there's more to it than just what appears to us - those outside the loop - to be a rather clear-cut case. It seems to me that any time K40 waves their stick, those threatening them disappears. What's different there that another company, one which holds the patents, is unable to do, then, that K40 can?

Why would these companies not choose to enforce the rights that are afforded them by their patents?

That's my question.


Quote:
Now look at the other side of the coin, put yourself in these other jammer company shoes for a moment. They have warehouses stocked to the brim that they need to sell to ďsomeoneĒ or they are going to lose a LOT of money. No one likes to lose money, especially a lot of it. These jammer companies that donít hold the patent are no different. They see the writing on the wall, and they full well know that without those patents that no one in their right mind will want to buy their product, so what do they do?

What would you do if you were in their position?

You use an old sleight of hand trick - and you get people to not focus on the big patent issue, but on other issues instead.

Iím sure LI will have their salesmen go on forums just like this one and try to get people to look at how good their jammer is, and it IS a good jammer, but thatís beside the point right now if youíre going to be making an investment by buying a jammer. The big picture isnít what can this or that jammer do today, itís what can and will it do for you tomorrow. Plain and simple, they canít promise you tomorrow unless they hold the patents. If they do try and promise you a bright tomorrow with their product, then thatís a big Ďol red flag for them shilling their product on you.

What are you going to do, get on a plane and fly to croatia and try to hunt down where they live, and if by chance you do happen to find them and speak Chakavian or Kajkavian - plead with them to make you a software update?

LPP is in an even worse predicament, as they now also have the bad reputation for not making updates even when the company was around. How can they afford to buy patent rights if they canít even afford to hire one single software tech to make a TruSpeed update? As an investor I donít like to see people waste their money. The future of jammers is clearly written on the wall. It has been there for many months now, drying in that hot desert sun. Hopefully people will make the right decision and buy a product that they know they can have some confidence in and will be around in the future, and if they donít make the right decision, well then they have only themselves to blame. I do hope that at least one other company buys the patent rights, hopefully Bel/Escort since they have been in this industry from the beginning, and they seem to respect the countermeasure community more than some of these other companies that have their shills bickering every day on other forums. If Blinder became a monopoly then that could hurt them, and accordingly, hurt the entire community, so I hope they play their cards right. Time will tell. I hope it works out in the best interest of the countermeasures community which we all love.
Very valid, and again, I agree.

However, at the same time, the patent-holders cannot rest on their laurels.

Performance is something that we in the community will continue to insist upon - be it from Escort, Blinder, or any other source.

Certainly, having shills that present claim after story after bogus data about their item being superior to another is a constant problem in our Forum communities, but when, repeatedly, individual hobbyists and hobbyist groups, from the globe over, individually and independently test various products, and all reach similar conclusions, one can hardly use the same argument to invalidate the product.

Performance is performance, and it is an undeniable, quantitative, measure of how well the jammer works.

But aside from that, there's such ill-will engendered in the community now that anyone threatening the "legal big stick" will be seen as having cowered in the face of a true performance-based duel.

It's sad that that's the community's sentiments...but indeed, what you fear about a monopoly, that's what I fear, too.

FWIW, the only thing that I do not agree with you about is your hopes that Escort will come into possession of any patent renewals.

I would much rather see that go to Blinder, or to another company which has been more responsive to the concerns of the countermeasures enthusiast/hobbyist community.

Historically, this has been one of the few areas where I find fault with Escort - and although they are now actively trying to make-better, I still find myself rather cautious.....

---

And as an aside - RE: LPP -

Currently, that's our (collective, LPP users/owners) worry.

The TruSpeed issue has really, really rubbed us the wrong way, and it has led many of us to literally abandon-ship - and, of-course, has become a huge black-mark, even on the records of those of their retailers which have not, prior, lost the trust of the community (i.e. LPP_Rep/David/DMI-Sport).

I still continue to hope against hope, posting a weekly "update?" question on the KMPH-Canada/LPP-Canada sponsored LPP Support Forums.

For as disheartened and disappointed as I am, I still hope that they won't drop off to the wayside - not because I own the system, I'm a realist, I know that toys like this don't have much of a "life expectancy," but rather, because one less competitor is one closer to the market being a monopoly, and to that end, only the end-hobbyists will suffer.


TSi+WRX's Sig:- Allen/Usual Suspect "DumboRAT"/One of the Three Stooges

LI Rev.2.8, Ver.7.03 - quad 8.0A-f w/ 8.5 Slim-r
LPP v8.3h(CAN/AU)/10.1s, 2xF/1xR
9500i, Red (4307) w/ZR3
VEIL G4
CR8APL8s, w/LaserShield(F)
Cheetah GPS-Mirror

[ Wifey's FXT -> Bue 8500x50 (Rev.5); LI Rev.2.9, Ver.7.08 - dual 8.5 ]

Me: '05 Legacy 2.5GT Ltd., mildly modified
Wifey: '09 Forester XT, barely modded
Baby-Anna: too short to reach any pedals!
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)   IP: 192.168.2.1
Old 2009-06-28
Speed Trap Hunter's Avatar
Speed Trap Hunter Speed Trap Hunter is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: 2007 Jun
Posts: 32
Speed Trap Hunter has disabled reputation
Default

Quote:
In terms of the patents:

My question would be this - if they are enforceable/actionable, then why have the concerned parties chosen to NOT pursue enforcement?

But that is purely academic, to me, as a consumer. It's a war to be waged that I, as an end-level user, am not particularly concerned with.

Why?

Simple - the patent does not matter to me, what matters to me is protective capability/performance, and the ability of "the company" (i.e. manufacturer, reseller, etc.) to provide WARRANTY support, as well as technical support, once items are out-of-warranty.
They sure as hell matter to me. Companies like Blinder, Beltronics, Escort, Valentine, Whistler, and Veil have made substantial investments into patenting (actually creating something new out of ingenuity). If you have ever been involved with IP (the patenting process) you would know that proper patenting takes literally years and cost literally hundreds of thousands of dollars.

Companies who instead choose to knock-off those products are not playing by any ethical rules and decidedly operate in fashion that puts the companies willing to invest in patenting at a distinct disadvantage.

I am disappointed that many/most in our industry's online community don't have better solidarity and stand-behind the companies that actually created or enabled the industry to exist in first place, that's why we're all here, to begin with. It's the innovators. It's always been the innovators.

Most anyone can read a patent, knock-off the innovation, produce it abroad, and market it in an unethical fashion. For a legitimate company to defend or swat every fly or bottom-feeder isn't necessarily practical either.

What Blinder chooses to do or not do is not any of our business and has nothing to do with whether they can play on a "level" playing field with other performance competition. Because such an argument is already flawed.

The patent-infringer or reverse-engineer is already NOT playing on the same playing field because they have used the found knowledge already disclosed in the published patents without having to spend the fortune to not only do the initial ground-breaking discovery work but the protection of it, as well.

IF LI or anyone else for that matter were actually successful at either applying/receiving a patent in the states or successfully license Blinder's IP then it would be a different story.

Remember the time-line: When RadarRoy first promoted LI (with, frankly, what I regard as a grossly irresponsible video) at a GoL event several years ago (and the GoL may have been made unwitting partners in it), he had stated (publicly) that the company was going to seek and get a patent quickly.

I knew this to be a completely false statement, because I know a thing our two about the patenting process. It is arduous, protracted, and very expensive.

Were there financial motivations involved? (It wouldn't surprise me in the slightest--remember this was well BEFORE Radar Busters was sold to NetShops) and RD.NET (and the GoL) served as an easily exploitable platform to do so.

The unhealthy dynamics that were created by the site operator persist in one form or another to this very day. And again this is another reason why the STH forum exists.

The fact that certain less-than-forthright operations are permitted to still operate "under-the-radar" is a decision that the current site operators are permitting.

For me there are more important things than money/profit or "success in business." Things like ethics, integrity, loyalty, honor...

In life, things have a way of coming back and biting you in the a$$ and I personally, don't like swimming in dirty/murky water, either...

I suspect the reason the world-economy is in the current shape that it's in, is because our "leaders" (both corporate and gov't) have forgotten this along their way.

STH


Speed Trap Hunter's Sig:Experience the latest working countermeasures in the real-world of actual driving:=====

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Loyalty is above All, save Honor.

Building, A Future Worth Creating, Today.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)   IP: 76.190.193.28
Old 2009-06-28
TSi+WRX TSi+WRX is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: 2008 Sep
Location: Cleveland/Shaker Heights, Ohio, USA
Posts: 44
TSi+WRX is on a distinguished road
Default

^ Exactly, it matters to you - someone in the industry.

But to an end-consumer?

How many will share the same thoughts/concerns towards the ethics of conduct of a business/industry that they themselves see as a laughingstock, based exactly on those negative factors which you've listed?

No, I don't like the back-handedness. No, I don't like the bickering.

No, I don't like it that such patent violations is, literally, someone stealing another's idea - as an academic scientist, that goes against every bit of my moral fiber/core. [ So this brings up, again, the other question, and while your answer of "it's none of our business" certainly is correct, it still begs the very real "why?" - why don't they pursue it if it is enforceable, or, alternatively, is it true what we're left to deduce, that the patent(s) either has/have no bearing, or does not encompass the other products' technical aims? ]

But as someone who's spending money on a product, who expects performance from it?

Divorce yourself from all other considerations for one second - pretend you're just someone who is coming into the hobby, with no concerns of ethics, no knowledge of the industry.

What's going to sway your vote?

*THAT* is why I say what I did - that as an individual end-consumer, what's going to matter to me?


TSi+WRX's Sig:- Allen/Usual Suspect "DumboRAT"/One of the Three Stooges

LI Rev.2.8, Ver.7.03 - quad 8.0A-f w/ 8.5 Slim-r
LPP v8.3h(CAN/AU)/10.1s, 2xF/1xR
9500i, Red (4307) w/ZR3
VEIL G4
CR8APL8s, w/LaserShield(F)
Cheetah GPS-Mirror

[ Wifey's FXT -> Bue 8500x50 (Rev.5); LI Rev.2.9, Ver.7.08 - dual 8.5 ]

Me: '05 Legacy 2.5GT Ltd., mildly modified
Wifey: '09 Forester XT, barely modded
Baby-Anna: too short to reach any pedals!
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)   IP: 192.168.2.1
Old 2009-06-28
Speed Trap Hunter's Avatar
Speed Trap Hunter Speed Trap Hunter is offline
Administrator
 
Join Date: 2007 Jun
Posts: 32
Speed Trap Hunter has disabled reputation
Default

Allen,

Perhaps I can do a better job at clarifying my own position, here.

I suspect that a company could literally spend another small fortune defending every new comer choosing not the play by the rules (as it were).

However, since such companies tend to take other shortcuts as well (ie; quality control) and shoddy customer service (need I name any of the countless Blinder knock-offs?) they ultimate take care of themselves (often in short order), without forcing another to either spend additional funds or simply be distracted (where future product development could suffer as a consequence).

LI may have been different in this one regard. They had a huge sounding platform (ie; Radar Roy's endorsement, GoL, and RD.NET), instead of the discouraging postings from the same or other entities.

Again, I certainly can't speak or presume to speak for Blinder, but I suspect it may be something along these lines...I suspect time will tell.

Please keep in mind, I have nothing personally against these companies or their products or the individuals that have chosen to use/support them.

I am more discouraged, though, by certain shills and their enablers (operating in their own self-interests) who have created a historical train-wreck of collateral damage. And to be perfectly candid, that's where much of my soreness exists. Like an elephant, I don't forget and frankly, I want to be part of a cleaner shop.

PS: If LI is successful at getting the go-ahead (either with their own patent or with a license) I would likely be a huge fan (of them in this market). They must have some serious talent on their team.

STH


Speed Trap Hunter's Sig:Experience the latest working countermeasures in the real-world of actual driving:=====

Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.

Loyalty is above All, save Honor.

Building, A Future Worth Creating, Today.
Digg this Post!Add Post to del.icio.usBookmark Post in TechnoratiFurl this Post!
Reply With Quote
Reply



Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 15:15.


©2019 SpeedTrapHunter