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Guys of Lidar The Guys of LIDAR were formed in mid-2005 by a group of enthusiasts who met via the Internet interested in conducting controlled performance comparison tests. Today, the GoL have developed a faithful following who have come to appreciate their approach and shared passion. The opinions expressed by the Guys of Lidar are solely their own and not necessarily representative of speedtraphunter.net.

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  #21 (permalink)   IP: 129.22.226.41
Old 2008-10-01
TSi+WRX TSi+WRX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steagall1000 View Post
Juiced means in this case a extra diode head versus a single doide head. The LI that was tested first was a dual diode head, not a single. Therefore giving it much better performance in its normal weak spots.
This should, as happya$ cited above, be clarified.

At the 2007 testing, the tested LI was, as the GOL plainly disclosed on their website and during the many discussions which then ensued on the RD.net Forums (and also LPP Forums, the then LaserJammerForums and RadarInspector Forums, etc.), a pre-production prototype, with not only dual (polarized) receiver diodes, but also dual emitter diodes.

Contrary to the insistence of The Goons and others with the same ulterior motive of trying to discredit the LI, this fact was never buried, nor attempts made to hide it.

I've been on speed-detection countermeasures Forums since before the LI surfaced as "the next big thing," and can detail the full history of the various trials and tribulations of its development as well as attempt to come on to the US market, and I can assure any hobbyist who questions that fact - what I stated - as absolute truth, and I know that anyone who has been active in this community as of that time can corroborate the details that I've related as being not only factual and true, but also having been discussed, at least on RD.net if not also at other gathering places, in an open and un-cloaked manner.

In terms of the 2008 GOL testing, with the exception of the "un-named overseas prototype," all other units were, per the GOL, production retail, with dual receptive diode, and single emitter.

And to be quiet honest, even discounting the entirety of the 2008 GOL testing, there are now plenty of unrelated evidence from individual hobbyists as well as hobbyist groups to say that the current iteration of the LI more than lives up to not only the claims of its maker, but also the performance seen on the 2007 GOL testing of the prototype, and the 2008, of the retail variant of the device.

-----

Quote:
Originally Posted by steagall1000 View Post
Again I'm not saying happya$$ or GOL are Not true independent testers, I just believe that true independent testing is you testing the unit with the laser guns yourself. No reps, no Favoritism towards one jammer over another.
But in this manner, as voiced by VEIL Guy :

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veil Guy View Post
If you had attended another test (as a sales representative of Blinder USA) would you feel that your presence in and of itself would result in a discrediting of an entire test? Furthermore, even it a test isn't entirely "independent" (whatever that really means) doesn't necessarily mean the results are not accurate.
So with what you're saying, steagall, the great Blinder data that you and your fellow associated testers showed on YouTube as well as with guys like MEM-TEK and category4, on RD.net, should not be regarded as valid?

Nor how well the Blinder does in any of the CFL tests, right? because mhardy is associated with that group?

As with VEIL Guy and others, although I do regard the GOL's data highly, I am not blind to the fact that they could be manipulated - I'm a scientist by trade and training, and we're required to carry with us a healthy dose of skepticism.

However, when so many other testers' data matches what's seen with the GOL's, it not only reinforces the validity of said data source, but furthermore also reaffirms the data regarding the unit tested.

Like VEIL Guy said, the GOL doesn't hide from their results - it's all there, all published, for everyone's scrutiny.

----

Quote:
Originally Posted by steagall1000 View Post
So I have a solution to your problem, Please go buy the LI as I suggested before. When you start having problems with it write a private e-mail to TSI-WRX so he can tell you how great of a product the LI is after you have taken the product off your car more than once for either a burned out head or bad Control box. Then write a private message back to me so I can Laugh at you!! Walt I gave you a honest answer and you have broken a trust with me on posting something private between two adults. Please take TSI-WRX with you back over to RD.net. This forum is not for people who go around starting DRAMA. By the way I stand by my e-mail I wrote to you above. It is you that has to find out for yourself in purchasing a Laser Jammer what is right for you.
I only tell the truth.

Everything I've said about the LI can easily be reaffirmed through simple searches on RD.net, RR.net, and even the LI Forums.

I make no ulterior claims, and furthermore, no inaccurate claims.

The truth, and facts, cannot be debated. They are what they are.

I do not propagate rumor.

What I say on one Forum, I'll say on another, no matter who pays the bills for that Forum or who stands behind it.

My posts have never been deleted nor moderated, simply because all that I've cited within its bodytext have been truthful and honest, and with plenty of supporting references from other posts/threads in either that same Forum or others. To hide the truth that I represent would require virtually blanking all posts, from more than one community.

Every word I've typed can be validated from searching for the same data on the several speed-detections countermeasures Forum that I frequent.

If you want to talk "drama," look at your own repeated behavior as-cited on RD.net, as well as the post you made here, supposedly apologizing to the GOL ( My Apology to GOL ) , but now accusing them of using a "juiced" unit for their latest tests (by the way, if you meant to cite their 2007 test, where the prototype, you seem to know so well, was used, then why did you not properly and accurately do so? or was this a simple omission, in hopes that the person you're talking to about this would not realize this fact? and perhaps then be made to think that it also applied to the 2008, the latest, test, as well?).



Wanna talk drama?

Do you really want to go there, and make me cite all of the "bad" that you've done on RD.net, to the extent that BlinderDude asked you to step away from that Forum ?

Do you really want me to dig up all that past history, for everyone HERE to see as well?

And may I remind you, steagall, that I was one of the few who welcomed you back with open arms, after your initial decision to leave the RD.net community (after having started a thread to declare your intent never to return, given the injustice that you'd been subjected to....no drama, right? - and then to come back). It was only after your repeated misbehavior on the RD.net Forums, verified by many different members, that I finally reversed my original, rather charitable, thinking of your personal character.

I've *never* been accused of starting drama, in *any* community to which I've belonged, so please, before you go down that road, take stock of what you have.

Kindly refrain from your assaults on me, particularly if they're not based in truth.


TSi+WRX's Sig:- Allen/Usual Suspect "DumboRAT"/One of the Three Stooges

LI Rev.2.8, Ver.7.03 - quad 8.0A-f w/ 8.5 Slim-r
LPP v8.3h(CAN/AU)/10.1s, 2xF/1xR
9500i, Red (4307) w/ZR3
VEIL G4
CR8APL8s, w/LaserShield(F)
Cheetah GPS-Mirror

[ Wifey's FXT -> Bue 8500x50 (Rev.5); LI Rev.2.9, Ver.7.08 - dual 8.5 ]

Me: '05 Legacy 2.5GT Ltd., mildly modified
Wifey: '09 Forester XT, barely modded
Baby-Anna: too short to reach any pedals!

Last edited by TSi+WRX; 2008-10-01 at 14:07.
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  #22 (permalink)   IP: 129.22.226.41
Old 2008-10-01
TSi+WRX TSi+WRX is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaltBurkett View Post
TSi+WRX,

Thank you for the very comprehensive reply. I am not an expert on these jammers but very much depend on the experts like you to help me decide what would be the best application for my vehicle.
You're most welcome - but please Walt, there's no need to thank me.

I'm but a fellow car-nut, a fellow motorist, a fellow hobbyist, and all that I try to do is to bring forward *all* possible avenues in the exploration of "what to do/buy."

It's a hard decision, based on many different factors - but the final choice is yours, and that's where you have to decide how to weigh these various issues.

I can only serve as a guide, but whatever decision you make, needs to be right for YOU. That's all that's important, and the only thing that matters here.

Quote:
When referencing the GOL results one can not argue with the performance of the LI. The Blinder did have some "burnthrough" issues with the Ultralyte greater than 500 feet. (My threshold for performance) That is what concerned me with the Blinder.
I agree, those issues are concerning - but we need to examine them based on your specific vehicle, and your desired application.

In you proposed setup, your vehicle presents a much better frontal LIDAR profile than either of the two tested vehicles in the GOL latest (2007 and 2008) tests.

This fact, alone, should confer to your setup much, much more protection.

Add to this fact that in doing their testing, the GOL was forced to hold the placement of each jammer head in a similar manner (in order to insure fairness across-the-board), this also could have affected the outcome - with your own setup, in being able to best-optimize how to place the jammer heads on your vehicle to cover its specific hardpoint concerns, you will again return with likely a not-insignificant increase in observed jamming performance.

Finally, and most importantly, your proposed setup will be a "M35" - a three-heads up-front - setup. This will allow you to even better optimize jammer head placement, and will likely substantially increase your overall performance margin.

Quote:
But don't get me wrong, I like Blinder and have had them on my Previous M3 and current BMW K1200S.
And I feel like, in the face of steagall's assults, that I need to further reiterate my stance on Blinder, too.

Not only have I repeatedly favored Blinder in the past (my words, in favor of Blinder, can be found all over any automotive enthusiast Forum on which I've been asked to render opinions regarding speed-detection countermeasures), but it was also upon my recommendation that two fellow car-enthusiasts I know made their purchase of the J15 M25 units.

If I were so supposedly "against" Blinder, why would I have done so, in either case, steagall?

Quote:
However going forward and knowing that the SRX on my Porsche is not adequate protection I am in the market for the best of the best at this time. Money aside, it seems the LI is the best but longevity may be the greater determinant I should be looking for.
Exactly.

Currently, there is no clear-cut "best."

The LI may be King-of-the-Hill, when it comes to all-around performance and in proving that they are the fastest, when it comes to jumping on new technology and new threats - but in terms of long-term durability and reliability, there's truly not much that could be said about it. Furthermore, it continues to be a grey-market product, and with all due respect to Cliff/C55/C63's current success (and this comes from me as a true and heartfelt statement, as I have repeatedly publicly congratulated Cliff on not only his proper management of the warranty claims from the initial US batch, but also his current business model) as this product's North-American distributor and sole representative, it is still, rather, a "young upstart."

AntiLaser continues to baffle, with its seeming excellent performance and fast technical updates/response (currently, the all-new G9 is on-market in parts of Europe), but with no thought given to the US market (relying solely on grey-market [in a much darker sense of the word than what LI, with Cliff, has been able to achieve], individual, import of the device), nor with proper follow-up and satisfaction of the continual weathersealing issues that plague the G8. Add to all this the persistent worry about shipping - and yes, I know, it's very unlikely that the package will be checked, detained, and given duties/taxes/brokerage fees, should the right kind of packaging, as well as courier, be chosen, but I also well know, from over 10 years of independent, hobby-level participation in having such small/personal shipments of low-cost goods (from a few dollars, to about $10,000, per individual shipment) cross both oceans, that these issues DO occasionally pop up, and simply cannot be disregarded - well, you get the picture.....

Laser Pro Park, while having truly established itself here in the US and Canada via its dual-pronged attack, and having now a nearing 2-year time-span that can testify to the product's durability/reliability, seems to not only be just a step down in performance from the LI (to completely discount the AL G9, until more tests of it has been made), and is also priced hundreds of dollars higher. Furthermore, technologically speaking, the LPP is trailing the top contenders by quite a margin, and as a LPP user, this not only disappoints me greatly, but also upsets.

Meanwhile, with the PASS and LaserStar, both remain controversial. The former has seen conflicting testing results (and even then, the "good" is still, yet, nothing stellar), and the latter has seen no trustworthy corroboration of its testing data at all. With the conflict between The Goons and the GOL serving as background, currently, all that can be said, in as far as I am concerned, personally, is that I am completely unwilling to accept The Goons's data on the thinly disguised LaserJammerTests marketing ploy, due to their repeated dishonesty and dis-service to the community...but that given the personalities involved, that I am willing to also simply entertain the possibility that the GOL data is not an accurate representation of the true performance of this unit. Without more individual hobbyist tests of either of these devices, even given their cost-advantages over the three others listed above, I'm very, very hesitant to make recommendations of them.

Regarding the LED-based jammers, the Escort ZR4 Shifter is, performance-wise, ineffective, until paired with VEIL G4. This, combined with the product's current state of being an "unknown" with regard to absolute durability/reliability (for although such factors are well known of the ZR3, the ZR4's head redesign has already seen more than one case of its units failing, due to water/moisture ingress into the heads, even only weeks after its first introduction).

With the Blinder J15, 5-suffix units, I think that the only real worry I have, now, would be how they will handle "future-proofing" issues While noting that J11 owners have had to ante up the full price of purchase, for the J15, and that this lack of support within the community was what disappointed - and some, violently upset - those of us over at RD.net, who were long-time Blinder proponents, particularly with the TruSpeed still being a performance-threat that, to-date, remains to be proven, it should also be said that both BlinderDude and mhardy have acknowledged a new update/upgrade policy for which revisional updates/upgrades can be purchased, at very reasonable prices (akin to those for the LPP and LI "updated" control-boxes). However, as details of the J15/16's performance versus the TruSpeed is not forthcoming here, I hope to log on to the RD.net Forums later today (my personal life has been quite busy as of late), and to read more on this issue, per mhardy's preliminaries. Similarly, although I very highly and favorably regard this new move by Blinder, for very reasonable-cost upgrades/updates, I cannot but be reminded of the fact that an unspoken honor was broken, between the J11/J15 update, versus what we all saw as simply superb C/S from the now near-long-forgotten Stalker update.

Quote:
I hear you about a couple or few people having LI head problems but what percentage of total LI sales here in the US is this really a problem? Would Cliff be able to quantify this? Would he? Could I trust his data?
I've always found Cliff to be very forthcoming - however, I doubt that he will have accurate data, in this respect, simply due to the fact that much of the warranty claim (or lack thereof) issue, with the initial US-batch, stemmed from the time that Elvis was at the helm of LI, stateside, and records were poorly kept.

Without an accurate gauge of how many units were initially sold ( and then perhaps even re-sold, given the constant hobby-equipment/hardware flux that is the automotive enthusiast's curse ), since Cliff did not take-over stateside operations until this May, it would be, in my honest opinion, impossible for him to make any accurate statements in this regard.

All that I know is that from Ivan's postings on RD.net, the estimate of affected heads that were in the initial stateside shipment was guessed to be at around 70%. Based on the number of warranty claim fulfillments that I've seen posted to the LI Forum's "General" page, and of what I know of who has the devices from the first US run (based on open postings on the RD.net Forums, as well as PMs/e-mails from fellow hobbyists either locally or nationally [although I am not, per-se, an active member of the local show/track/street-racing scene, I am somewhat of a known feature, and as-such, often see such contacts), I would say that this was an honest figure, and neither too optimistic nor pessimistic.

Quote:
With the narrow frontal section of my Porsche, having a 3 head system would or could possibly offer me a one head failure redundancy in that two heads should offer the protection I am looking for. The middle head would be within the 3 foot protection window of both headlights. (My thoughts anyway)
As I reiterated above, this is my precise thinking as well. I'd actually honestly be surprised if you did not see at least "effective-JTG" performace from this proposed "M35" setup.

Certainly, such a setup should *easily* afford you the necessary critical seconds to slow-to-reasonable/PSL, particularly given your noted driving habits and encounter situations, in your initial posts.

Quote:
My survival rate against laser thus far has been a great lookout doctrine. Seeing them before they see and employ against you. I guess I finely developed that skill as an F-14 pilot. Speaking of which, "burnthrough" was the term we used when our radar was able to see and shoot a missile against an active jamming fighter or bomber target.
I do know the time is coming when I do not see the LEO and that is when I will wish I had the best system in place. Thus my search.
How cool! Now I have to steal that terminology from you!

OK, maybe it wasn't so cool, when you were flying.

In any case, I totally agree. I have a very pragmatic - many would say pessimistic - outlook on this entire situation. I see the cards as being stacked very, very much in favor of "The House." The odds are with them, all they need is that one lucky burnthrough in order to ruin my day.

Me, in turn?

I need al the help I can get, to make sure that I go unmolested.

And this is, of course, where I agree with you the most. The biggest and most important factor of all of this is paying attention - situational awareness.

It's always best to (for)see the trap ahead, and to avoid it, instead of having to rely on the countermeasures we've equipped ourselves with.

And it's really only in those impossible-to-avoid situations where, as you said, these investments pay off.

Quote:
I can tell you one thing I do not like about these systems, at least the Blinder anyway. IRT the installation. I wish the heads had a quick disconnect fitting so changing a head was simple instead of having to un-route the whole wire and then reroute a new one. There are weather proof fittings available for this and weather proof tape could also be used for double protection. (Leon?)
I agree, and believe me, you're not the only one to have thought/complained about this.

The problem, currently debated, is one of not only added expense, but an added potential problem point.

FWIW, though, while I see that side of the argument, I more agree with yours - that such a connection would make things much, much better, overall, particularly given the fact that it has, so far, seemed that NO jammer maker has been able to solve the question of weathersealing on a "permanent" basis (versus, say, automotive headlights and other such "exposed" components).


TSi+WRX's Sig:- Allen/Usual Suspect "DumboRAT"/One of the Three Stooges

LI Rev.2.8, Ver.7.03 - quad 8.0A-f w/ 8.5 Slim-r
LPP v8.3h(CAN/AU)/10.1s, 2xF/1xR
9500i, Red (4307) w/ZR3
VEIL G4
CR8APL8s, w/LaserShield(F)
Cheetah GPS-Mirror

[ Wifey's FXT -> Bue 8500x50 (Rev.5); LI Rev.2.9, Ver.7.08 - dual 8.5 ]

Me: '05 Legacy 2.5GT Ltd., mildly modified
Wifey: '09 Forester XT, barely modded
Baby-Anna: too short to reach any pedals!

Last edited by TSi+WRX; 2008-10-01 at 14:35.
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  #23 (permalink)   IP: 66.212.2.6
Old 2008-10-01
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Veil Guy Veil Guy is offline
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TSi+WRX,

Thanks for that thoughtful (and what appears to be very fair and balanced) encapsulation of recent history.

To be frank, I really haven't followed this too closely, but I totally agree with your assessment about Blinder.

I am pleased to hear that their policies vis-a-vis owners of previous versions of the Xtreme laser jammers may be more favorable than what they once were.

Veil Guy


Veil Guy's Sig:

Protect yourself from speeding tickets[/b] with the VEIL stealth coating.

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  #24 (permalink)   IP: 65.91.3.140
Old 2008-10-01
WaltBurkett WaltBurkett is offline
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Veil Guy,
I appreciate the well reasoned and thought out response.
IRT the longevity of the LI has anyone done a study as to what the actual reliability is or has been? A case study or interviews of LI purchasers if you will. Would it even be possible to get this info? It seems to me that the overall and prevailing attitude by some is that the LI won't last because they heard of someone that had a failure or possibly saw one not work as advertised in a particular test. That hardly qualifies as scientific or even as a wide system wide problem. But then again, maybe real stats are not available for the obvious reasons of selling more of them.
As I mentioned previously, IF the manufactures made a quick disconnect at the actual head it would be very easy to change out if and when it failed. Currently the process of changing out bad heads is not consumer friendly, that's for sure. Maybe that too is by design. I could simply test the LI heads often and when a failure is identified replace it with a spare and send it in for replacement under the current 2-year warrantee.
As also mentioned, the LTI Ultralyte results from the recent GOL testing gives me pause as far as the Blinder is concerned. I have seen and heard about purposeful targeting here in the DFW area of less than 1,000 feet and there appears to be a weakness with the J15. Maybe I am reading too much into this however. As you said all jammers perform differently at different times and environments.
I really am on the fence though. Maybe a couple more tests might sway me or even better maybe Leon could sell me another M45 and loan an LTI gun to test for myself. If it works I sing the praises of Blinder against the LTI, if not I send him the Blinder and gun back and continue my search. (Leon?)

Walt
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  #25 (permalink)   IP: 65.91.3.140
Old 2008-10-01
WaltBurkett WaltBurkett is offline
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TSi+WRX,

That was pretty much an all encompassing reply and an answer to all my questions. It will either be the Blinder or LI system I employ. Thanks again for your time and efforts to write the above. It took me a long time to read it so I know it took longer to type it.
And for the record, this is exactly the kind of information that I need to help make an educated decision on the matter.

Walt
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