Has LI gone belly up?

Veil Guy · #6 (**permalink**) 2009-06-27

Vic,

This may have been a little bit before your time online, but I was one of the early "founding" admins (along with Leon of Blinder and, of course, Roy of RB at the time) of RD.net.

Originally in the early days, the forum was generally enjoyable and free of controversy and politics and paid shills. That all began to change for the worse after the popularity of the site grew over time and when certain laser jammer companies began using shills to conduct smear campaigns against other legitimate established companies (namely Blinder). Some even went as far as fabricating false performance/test videos and publishing them on youtube as if they were from the manufacturer that they set out to discredit in their videos.

When I stood-up for the targets of such hit-pieces, I was thrown under the bus by many (even other Admins/Mods) who felt it easier to believe the source(s) of such tests/videos . I stood (and continue to stand-by) my position which I clearly expressed at the time. Unfortunately, it wasn't seen for the truth it turned out to be, at the time, and I ended-up resigning as an admin (in large part) due to those developments. Unfortunately, the owner/operator of the site felt the controversy helped drive traffic to it (which of course it did, selfish or popular as it may have been) and was content to leave the manufacturer(s) that helped originally build-up the site to hang out to twist in the wind because of the traffic that the perceived "controversy" it generated.

I will never forget that ugly period or the real motivations (ie; the notion that controversy drives traffic and the belief of [ultimately] sales) behind those developments of all parties involved.

Most of these nefarious things stemmed from certain motivated laser jammer companies wishing to find an marketing edge with the uninformed (at the expense of other legitimate manufacturers) along with the belief that the ends-justify-the-means, whatever the cost or collateral damage that ensued.

That is in large part why this forum exists, today.

Principles only matter when they are inconvenient...

Please forgive my rant, but as you can see, this is remains a really sore point with me, even to this day...

Veil Guy

Speed Trap Hunter · #7 (**permalink**) 2009-06-27

^ Might doesn't make right...

STH

Stealth Enthusiast · #8 (**permalink**) 2009-06-27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Speed Trap Hunter

Thanks for noticing, we are really trying to be different here and the fact that you can see this is very heartening to hear!

No problem STH

I have been an admin myself for many forums for many, many years, and am now moderating for the forum software that you use so I know how a kind word is appreciated

Please keep up the good work. It sets this forum above the others

Quote:

I feel the ZR4's have gotten a "bad-rap" online from some of the fixed testings that have been performed (often suggesting JTG is the only acceptable outcome of such tests). I disagree with such acid tests' "conclusions."

So do I. A jammer has one purpose and one purpose only, and that is to buy the driver some time to slow down to the posted speed limit. Once that happens no one can (or should) expect any more from their jammer. It has already saved you and performed its task. This is one of the reasons why it upsets me so much when I see uneducated users of jammers trying to JTG. That cannot only hurt the person trying to JTG, but it also hurts the jamming community as a whole. Once a person has reached the posted speed limit it's time to turn the jammer off, thank God that you didn't get a ticket, and responsibly be on your way. The majority of tests that I have seen on the Internet are not conducted in a real world way, so I take them with a grain of salt

I am going to have to reevaluate the ZR4 as they may not be as bad as some people say. Thanks.

Quote:

fixed tripods and low-speed passes aren't typical and generally favor the countermeasures used

This one confuses me. Wouldn't a tripod make the test more accurate, as it takes the human element out of the test and puts "machine against machine" so to speak? From that point on, when a real LEO tries to scan you with his laser gun since they won't be holding the gun as steady, their results will be worse than with the tripod. That's how I understand it anyway. As far as Veil goes, for the longest time I used only Veil and it has always worked great. Just wish it was a little less conspicuous though, but I will always continue to support and use it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veil Guy

When I stood-up for the targets of such hit-pieces, I was thrown under the bus by many (even other Admins/Mods) who felt it easier to believe the source(s) of such tests/videos. I stood (and continue to stand-by) my position which I clearly expressed at the time.

Veil Guy PLEASE do not ever buckle under the pressure from those spreading misinformation, propaganda and rhetoric. I have always respected and admired you because of your honesty, and it helps to keep others like myself strong when debating those that you talked about. Nothing is more important to me than the unvarnished truth. We need more people like you in this community

Quote:

the owner/operator of the site felt the controversy helped drive traffic to it and was content to leave the manufacturer(s) that helped originally build-up the site to hang out to twist in the wind

In the forum software business this is rule #101 for generating new members and getting old members to post. Just create a controversy and people will be attracted to it like a magnet. A good admin will squash it, but a admin looking to grow (needed to attract advertisers) will too many times just turn a blind eye and let the madness continue

I left that site because I could not trust what I was reading on it. It has become a sort of 'National Enquirer' tabloid for the countermeasures community. You know, well known in name and untrustworthy in information. I know many people who have stopped going there. I go to a forum to be educated and to learn about a topic (in this case countermeasures) and not to be manipulated by shills. Because anyone can post anything on you-tube, I do not use it as a source of credible information either. I do think that the countermeasures community will clean itself up over the next couple of years. Too many people are sick and tired of all of the bickering, soap operas and nonsensical games being played by those willing to mislead just to make money. Hopefully that will happen sooner than later.

Veil Guy · #9 (**permalink**) 2009-06-27

Stealth,

To clarify, my tripod commentary. Yes fixed tripods and low speed passes do, indeed, eliminate many variables, and are wonderful for making back-to-back comparitive analyses and serve as a good guide to relative performance differences within the confines of any given test's parameters.

However, in the real-world, such things are not generally the case. Many years ago with heavy Gen I guns the like the original LTI 20-20, I did occasionally observe traffic enforcement (like MD state troopers) set up in the median and use fixed tripods. But as the guns have gotten (much) lighter and easier to use and employ more sophisticated algorithms, hand-holding, I believe occurs much much more frequently. The latest guns from LTI (ie; Truspeed) and Kustom (ie; Prolite+) are designed for easy hand-holding operation (to better compete with their radar counterparts).

I have even observed officers targeting through the windshields from the comfort of the driver's seat of the cruiser (which even handicaps them even more)

Of course for most unprotected vehicles, this wouldn't make much of a difference. However with them, performance of any countermeasure will tend to do much better which is why products like the ZR4, I believe, will provide better performance in the real-world than controlled tests may otherwise suggest.

By all means, I am not suggesting that these tests don't have their rightful place, they do. I am merely stating that I don't believe they are the final word, either.

That was my point. Sorry for not being clearer in my earlier post.

Thanks for your supportive thoughts, they're MUCH appreciated.

Even though you are new posting here, it is nice to see that you are a seasoned poster. Sometimes it feels like one is in the wilderness, but its nice to see that I am not alone, after all.

Glad to have your participation here at STH!

Veil Guy

vschuel · #10 (**permalink**) 2009-06-27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Veil Guy

Vic,

This may have been a little bit before your time online, but I was one of the early "founding" admins (along with Leon of Blinder and, of course, Roy of RB at the time) of RD.net.

Originally in the early days, the forum was generally enjoyable and free of controversy and politics and paid shills. That all began to change for the worse after the popularity of the site grew over time and when certain laser jammer companies began using shills to conduct smear campaigns against other legitimate established companies (namely Blinder). Some even went as far as fabricating false performance/test videos and publishing them on youtube as if they were from the manufacturer that they set out to discredit in their videos.

When I stood-up for the targets of such hit-pieces, I was thrown under the bus by many (even other Admins/Mods) who felt it easier to believe the source(s) of such tests/videos. I stood (and continue to stand-by) my position which I clearly expressed at the time. Unfortunately, it wasn't seen for the truth it turned out to be, at the time, and I ended-up resigning as an admin (in large part) due to those developments. Unfortunately, the owner/operator of the site felt the controversy helped drive traffic to it (which of course it did, selfish as it may be) and was content to leave the manufacturer(s) that helped originally build-up the site to hang out to twist in the wind because of the traffic it generated.

I will never forget that ugly period or the real motivations (ie; controversy drives traffic and [ultimately] sales) behind those developments of all parties involved.

Most of these nefarious things stemmed from certain motivated laser jammer companies wishing to find an marketing edge with the uninformed (at the expense of other legitimate manufacturers) along with the belief that the ends-justify-the-means, whatever the cost or collateral damage that ensued.

That is in large part why this forum exists, today.

Principles only matter when they are inconvenient...

Please forgive my rant, but as you can see, this is remains a really sore point with me, even to this day...

Veil Guy

I couldn't agree more Bob! And no need to apologize!!!! Yes, it was before my time online (although I'm not THAT old - a spry 41). I enjoyed RD.net for quite some time until I started getting my arse chewed out for sharing my experiences with your product (can I say the name??? VEIL!!!!!). I suppose my car would be considered atypical, given the lengths I have taken to stealth out the front end. As you so aptly stated previously, it's real-world experiences that count, not a "controlled" environment. Someone over at RD.net stated that I should have my system tested (i.e. my ZR4) before any real LIDAR encounters, or else it would be a recipe for failure. How would you respond to this, or do I need to ask? As well, I was engaged in conversation with another "founding father" regarding the jammer to which this thread was started on (LI) - and I apologize for getting off topic -, who stated that it (LI) wasn't certified for eye safety yet by the FDA, as the company has not yet sent their jammer in for review...HMMMMMMMMM.

I honestly appreciate the fact that you established this forum to uphold one of our most cherished constitutional rights: freedom of speech.